Re: [问题]为何基督教对同志那样反感?其他宗教不会

楼主: rehoboth (火流星!降临!)   2016-10-31 11:48:52
为了避免像上次那样的一直再加推文,我还是用回文好了
你提到的Leibniz,应该是让"神义论"这个词确定为神学术语的
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz
(其实这句没多大意义,纯粹写给别人看,让后续的人可以比较快找到关键字线索)
重点是--他讲的是
"this world is the best of all possible worlds"
"我们所在的世界,是所有可能的世界中,最好的一个"
(不认同这样翻译的话,就麻烦你自己翻译了)
这世界的"正当性",就在于它是"所有可能的世界中最好/最靠近无误的"
也就是"逼近"无误(因此最好)
(果然这家伙是发明微积分的人)
就严格的逻辑表述而言,是可以说不必默认存在即无误
只要默认这世界是所有可能世界中最好的
_
不过大部分人处理0.9,也是当成1;
也许你可以有所突破,我乐观其成。
至于你后来的补充
‘这个世界,是全知全善全能的神所塑造,虽然同性婚姻倾向存在,
并且同性婚姻倾向是sinful/unjustifiable的;
但根据基督徒莱布尼兹的论证-主要想法就是不接受神的塑造与全知全善全能矛盾:
这个世界是所有神能够塑造的世界中最好的。
这论证否定了同性婚姻倾向不存在的世界会更好。’
就牴触了我原先贴文指出的"重点"
重点是--在神的拯救里面,世界运作的规则要被改变,
而不是继续如我们现今所观察到的持续下去。
这世界将会被救赎为新天新地
换言之,你(或者莱布尼兹)所主张的最好世界,仍是会变动的而不是静止不变
这是他原本论证中没有交代清楚的
如果照你的理解
既然死亡存在的现存世界是"最好的",否定了死亡不存在的世界会更好
我认为这是误读+超译了莱布尼兹,或者说至少无法与圣经经文的正常诠释一致
(也有可能莱布尼兹真会是那样主张,我跟他不熟)
※ 引述《longnprosper ()》之铭言:
: 先声明以下内文是个人立场非任何教会立场
: 并且标题不真 据我读过Dalai Lama也数次在公开访问说同性婚姻是"misconduct"
: 并且我不打算在PTT"战" 我的时间紧迫要赶着读数学和哲学
: (Reddit上有r/DebateReligion聚集至少美加英各国骁勇善战人士)
: 论述"same-sex marriage is sinful/unjustifiable/unethical/immoral"
: 的基督徒有至少一个如下基本假设
: "the state of the world is not the best of all possible states of the world
: since there is orientation of same-sex marriage"
: "the world could be brought about into a better state in which there is no
: orientation of same-sex marriage"
: 然而哲学家曾论证过
: 基督徒Leibniz的原句: "this world is the best of all possible worlds"
: 用我的话说的版本: "this state of the world is the best of all possible
: states of the world"
: 论证出处与用我的话说的论证细节如下
: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/leibniz/#Opt
: 1. God is omnipotent and omniscient and omnibenevolent and the free creator of
: the world (Definition)
: 2. The world could have possibly been brought about into other states (i.e.
: there are other possible states of the world) (Premise)
: 3. Suppose this state of the world is not the best of all possible states of
: the world (i.e."The world could be brought about into a better state")
: 4. If this world is not in the best of all possible states of the world, then
: at least one of the following must be the case:
: * God was not powerful enough to bring about a better state of the world;
: * God did not know how the state of this world will develop after his
: creation (i.e. God lacked foreknowledge);
: * God did not wish this world to be in the best state;
: * God did not create the world;
: * there were no other possible states of the world from which God could
: choose to bring about
: 5. But any one or more of the disjuncts of (4) contradicts (1) or (2)
: 6. Therefore this state of the world is the best of all possible state of the
: world
: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds
: 1. God knows infinitely many possible states of the universe
: 2. Only one of these states of the universe can actually exist
: 3. God has reason to choose one among all possible states of the universe
: 4. God is good
: 5. Therefore the state of the universe that God chose to exist is the best of
: all possible states of the universe
: 所以也许基督徒"放下对同性婚姻的(负面)成见"不必默认"存在即无误"
: 只要接受如上基督徒Leibniz的论证即可有充足立场

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