[讨论] 代贴 和好=成神吗?请教神学家!

楼主: outra (奥特罗)   2016-06-09 12:22:07
和好=成神吗?请教神学家!
神学家东拉西扯的神功相信大家都非常的憎恶。这次,他为了标榜自己的神功盖世,竟然
把爱任纽拖出来做他的擦屁股纸,这种侮辱先人的行为太过分了。所以,要修理修理他。
他这次用了一种很诡异的逻辑,就是:和好和神化都是属于同归于一;所以和好就是同归
于一,而神化也是同归于一(recapitulation);所以和好(reconciliation)就是神化
(deification)。对于看不太懂我在说什么的,我这样解释:这就好像说,因为神学家
的头和屁股都是神学家的,所以神学家的头就是神学家的屁股。以下是神学家的相关语录

※ 文章网址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Christianity/M.1465358851.A.FFC.html
→ theologe: 法理当然是称义,正教神学不是偏生机我输你 06/08 15:38
→ theologe: 复和就是神化观啦 06/08 15:38
※ 文章网址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Christianity/M.1465399663.A.6A0.html
→ theologe: 嗯嗯 我是照贴的,或许他这点有错误吧,不过不影响复和 06/09 00:20
→ theologe: 与同归于一论的关系。 06/09 00:2
神学家扛出【爱任纽】毕竟令我蛮惊讶的。因为目前中文,只有基督教文艺出版社的一部
“不完全”的翻译。若要真的了解爱任纽的神学,必须阅读Pillip Schaff《古教父全集
》的anf01。区区正好曾经把anf01中爱任纽的《反异端》的第三到第五卷,一字不漏的拜
读过一次。因为您既然如此熟悉爱任纽的神学,肯定是拜读过anf01的高手;华人基督教
有此功力的人,只能用凤毛麟抓形容之。所以,在此,小弟用三段话向神学家请教他自己
的论点。
为了完整表达爱任纽的神学,我引用的部分会比较长,免得产生“断章取义”的错误。
1.
Concurring with these statements, Paul, speaking to the Romans, declares: “Mu
ch more they who receive abundance of grace and righteousness for [eternal] li
fe, shall reign by one, Christ Jesus.”3607 It follows from this, that he knew
nothing of that Christ who flew away from Jesus; nor did he of the Saviour ab
ove, whom they hold to be impassible. For if, in truth, the one suffered, and
the other remained incapable of suffering, and the one was born, but the other
descended upon him who was born, and left him again, it is not one, but two,
that are shown forth. But that the apostle did know Him as one, both who was b
orn and who suffered, namely Christ Jesus, he again says in the same Epistle:
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized in Christ Jesus were baptiz
ed in His death? that like as Christ rose from the dead, so should we also wal
k in newness of life.”3608 But again, showing that Christ did suffer, and was
Himself the Son of God, who died for us, and redeemed us with His blood at th
e time appointed beforehand, he says: “For how is it, that Christ, when we we
re yet without strength, in due time died for the ungodly? But God commendeth
His love towards us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. M
uch more, then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath
through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were 【reconciled】 to God by t
he death of His Son; much more, being 【reconciled】, we shall be saved by His
life.”3609 He declares in the plainest manner, that the same Being who was l
aid hold of, and underwent suffering, and shed His blood for us, was both Chri
st and the Son of God, who did also rise again, and was taken up into heaven,
as he himself [Paul] says: “But at the same time, [it, is] Christ [that] died
, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God.”3610
And again, “Knowing that Christ, rising from the dead, dieth no more:”3611
for, as himself foreseeing, through the Spirit, the subdivisions of evil teach
ers [with regard to the Lord’s person], and being desirous of cutting away fr
om them all occasion of cavil, he says what has been already stated, [and also
declares:] “But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwel
l in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your morta
l bodies.”3612 This he does not utter to those alone who wish to hear: Do not
err, [he says to all:] Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is one and the same, who
did by suffering reconcile us to God, and rose from the dead; who is at the r
ight hand of the Father, and perfect in all things; “who, when He was buffete
d, struck not in return; who, when He suffered, threatened not;”3613 and when
He underwent tyranny, He prayed His Father that He would forgive those who ha
d crucified Him. For He did Himself truly bring in salvation: since He is Hims
elf the Word of God, Himself the Only-begotten of the Father, Christ Jesus our
Lord. (PG 639-640)
2.
But now the case stands thus, that the Word has saved that which really was [c
reated, viz.,] humanity which had perished, effecting by means of Himself that
communion which should be held with it, and seeking out its salvation. But th
e thing which had perished possessed flesh and blood. For the Lord, taking dus
t from the earth, moulded man; and it was upon his behalf that all the dispens
ation of the Lord’s advent took place. He had Himself, therefore, flesh and b
lood, recapitulating in Himself not a certain other, but that original handiwo
rk of the Father, seeking out that thing which had perished. And for this caus
e the apostle, in the Epistle to the Colossians, says, “And though ye were fo
rmerly alienated, and enemies to His knowledge by evil works, yet now ye have
been 【reconciled】 in the body of His flesh, through His death, to present yo
urselves holy and chaste, and without fault in His sight.”4567 He says, “Ye
have been 【reconciled】 in the body of His flesh,” because the righteous fle
sh has reconciled that lesh which was being kept under bondage in sin, and br
ought it into friendship with God. (pg786)
3.
If, then, any one allege that in this respect the flesh of the Lord was differ
ent from ours, because it indeed did not commit sin, neither was deceit found
in His soul, while we, on the other hand, are sinners, he says what is the fac
t. But if he pretends that the, Lord possessed another substance of flesh, the
sayings respecting reconciliation will not agree with that man. For that thin
g is reconciled which had formerly been in enmity. Now, if the Lord had taken
flesh from another substance, He would not, by so doing, have reconciled that
one to God which had become inimical through transgression. But now, by means
of communion with Himself, the Lord has reconciled man to God the Father, in r
econciling us to Himself by the body of His own flesh, and redeeming us by His
own blood, as the apostle says to the Ephesians, “In whom we have redemption
through His blood, the remission of sins;”4568 and again to the same he says
, “Ye who formerly were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ
;”4569 and again, “Abolishing in His flesh the enmities, [even] the law of c
ommandments [contained] in ordinances.”4570 And in every Epistle the apostle
plainly testifies, that through the flesh of our Lord, and through His blood,
we have been saved. (pg787)
在此,我想请教神学家三个问题:
1- 上面三段的内容是什么?
2- 上面三段对于【和好(reconciliation)】的定义是什么?
3- 上面三段有没有说【和好=神化】?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 12:33:00
没圣经依据 都是废文神学家唬烂的幻想文
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 12:35:00
楼上,没听过的东西最好安静看就好...
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 12:36:00
没经文做支持解释 都是废文 凭空想像神学家各家各派 全背起来 看圣经也是看不懂
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 12:38:00
爱任纽是基督教的古教父,据说是约翰的门徒...
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 12:39:00
因为这些神学家 本身就是看不懂 才会各种猜测把福音 系统化 就知道脑筋死了
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 12:44:00
人家是西元130年的人,圣经还没编成他就在护教了...
作者: eno4022 (eno)   2016-06-09 13:17:00
其他人都幻想,只有春天你不是?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:17:00
福音系统化时 就等于知识化 那时就做坏掉了
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 13:18:00
那你觉得,圣经章节的编成算不算系统化XD?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:19:00
分类 分拆 就坏掉
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:21:00
“知识化、系统化就是废文、坏掉”有圣经根据吗?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:21:00
若有人说知道福音 因信称义 但却没讲到 亚伯拉罕
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:22:00
没有的话,春天你也是是画虎兰而已啊。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:22:00
基本上 可以推定 这人并不全然了解福音保罗 也在提亚伯拉罕因为 整个新约福音 就是建构在亚伯拉罕的应许上
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:24:00
约翰书信也没有提到亚伯拉罕欸?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:24:00
讲到福音 绝对离不开亚伯拉罕其他门徒 也很少 因为负责解释福音的是保罗
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:25:00
原来没提到亚伯拉罕就是不全然了解福音(笔记)。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:26:00
就连司提反 也提到亚伯拉罕
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:26:00
那你不读约翰的书信喔?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:27:00
又来了 不想跟你们讨论 就是这样你们都故意曲解 我讲的意思反我 可以讲 没想要为反而否定讲的东西
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:28:00
我问你啊,请赶快澄清好吗?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:29:00
澄清什么 outra 一直不断扭曲我的文章意思
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:29:00
所以牧师没有从亚伯拉罕讲福音要小心了。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:30:00
他不了解全部意思情况下 就说我错解释这个 又挑那个
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:31:00
又不是每次都专注于福音的整个历史脉络,说没讲亚伯拉罕就是不全然了解福音,
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:31:00
就是为反而反 根本没在讨论 只为否定我
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:33:00
不然你的意思是啥?牧师讲道非得都要提亚伯拉罕吗?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:33:00
坚固各的圣徒
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:34:00
不是一定要 我指的是 若有人说 他知道福音 因信称义圣经都被他解开了 但 却不提亚伯拉罕
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:34:00
所以讲道要整个救赎的历史讲一次喔?
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 13:36:00
愚昧人若静默不言也可算为智慧;闭口不说也可算为聪明。 箴17:28
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:37:00
我讲话 很屁没错 但也没必要只想抓我讲话漏洞就否定掉讲的东西
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 13:37:00
老实说啦,爱任纽是谁其实我也不知道,我也是看完这篇才去google的
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:38:00
好啦,原来别人都没提到亚伯拉罕,
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:38:00
坡甲旅
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 13:38:00
而且这篇又不是回给你的,你到底跳进来乱干嘛......
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:40:00
Z Z z =.=
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:41:00
不过你的狂我喜欢,反观…有人狂也不狂出来。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:41:00
反正 你们就是要战我 =.= 但我说的是事实不止你们 我现实也碰过几位
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:42:00
改革宗神学里也有从亚伯拉罕讲福音也是事实。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:43:00
我讲的 大家认同 但 也都说 别人难道不懂吗 只有你懂我真的想说 :是的 目前 我碰到的 只有我知道谁会明白呢
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:45:00
希望你是先天下之忧而忧,而不是自我感觉良好。不过可能性极小,如同骆驼穿过针眼。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:48:00
自我感觉良好 o.o 正解
作者: eno4022 (eno)   2016-06-09 13:48:00
不亏是铁三角之二,够狂
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:48:00
(#・∀・),你真的太狂了,小弟真心佩服。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:49:00
请多多指教
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 13:49:00
狂属性点满了,猛!
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:50:00
其实 主要是在这里跟大家讨论 一起成长本身太宅 还走不出 ptt去教会聚会 讲这些 其实也没人要听
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 13:53:00
帮QQ
作者: eno4022 (eno)   2016-06-09 13:53:00
不过私心建议,要批评人家教义,就要能接受质疑,不然你最好谦虚说你不能接受就好,没必要说人家的东西都乱讲。你这样开地图炮,然后又不能或不敢跟人pk,只会让人觉得你low而已。有多少东西讲多少话,这基本的,不要料不够多就表现那么狂。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:53:00
福音 反而没人有兴趣 大家反而喜欢研究神学家 布道家听光鲜亮丽的牧师讲道
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 13:54:00
那我建议你,你可以自己开一篇文章试着讲讲看然后求大家先不要推文批评,让你慢慢写
作者: eno4022 (eno)   2016-06-09 13:54:00
不能接受是你的自由,但说人家的东西都乱讲,你就得对你的批评负责。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:55:00
真正的福音 反而没人在乎
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 13:55:00
推 springxx: 没圣经依据 都是废文
楼主: outra (奥特罗)   2016-06-09 13:55:00
传讲主耶稣,不传讲亚伯拉罕是不是福音?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 13:56:00
李常受弟兄 说 圣经被他解开了 但 他讲的却不是真正圣经 使徒所讲的内容outra 马上表演 二分法 曲解我意思我整个文章 意思 全被你扭曲的乱七八糟你可以提自己的版本跟我比较 而不要动手扭曲文章
楼主: outra (奥特罗)   2016-06-09 13:59:00
地方召会有一本很好的书,叫做【亚伯拉罕,以撒,雅各的神】,郑重推荐。
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 14:01:00
你们相信 真正的因信称义的福音 对一个读过圣经的人让他理解 其实 不需要几年 几个月 而是只要几小时吗福音是怎一回事 其实只要半几小时 就能解释你们相信 现实中 却是一堆人 花数年 数月研究一堆神学却对 福音是怎回事 还一知半解 有各种版本 各种理论因信称义的福音 保罗 也是不懂的
作者: eno4022 (eno)   2016-06-09 14:06:00
那你就慢慢对你的言论负责吧,懒得管你了
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 14:07:00
在司提反 睡着的时候 保罗也不知道 司提反在讲的是什么主在四十天 显现 将福音解释给所有门徒明白包括 保罗而花的时间 有些只有半天 就像那路上认不出主的二个门徒福音的解释 其实只要花几个小时解释 你们相信吗二 三场电影的时间 就能明白福音o.o不说了 今天碰到有人传福音 发现他们很强 很有亲和力
作者: eno4022 (eno)   2016-06-09 14:18:00
结果发现是召会 崩溃
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 14:18:00
讲的话 也吸引人 能带起兴趣不知道 只知道开头讲 有好消息不会一开头就跟你讲 主耶稣基督 神呀 多伟大 之类的是讲目前社会乱像 需要一个心灵 正面的导向来开启话题跟之前碰过的不同感觉像是耶证? 不知道 至少觉得 这方面远不如人家只能在ptt 跟弟兄乱斗讲再多 要真的做出来才有用讲这些 不影响召会 李的文章多数是废文的事实
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 14:39:00
springxx: 去教会聚会 讲这些 其实也没人要听你跟别人讲话,劈头第一句就:你废文,然后又说不出道理,那谁要听啊...你边缘人喔?
作者: springxx (天下布武)   2016-06-09 14:41:00
我这样讲一方面 幼稚个性使然 另一方面 是为了区分不同跟一般教会 教的神学 一混在一起 脉络就不见了影响思绪 而不能分辨不区分 就全混在一起 变牛丸我自己 读别人的解经 也会受影响 被拉走被带到别人的观点去这时 我会立即卡掉不读 不然就掉进去 找不回原来的感觉有人读各家各派 书看很多 这一类的我大概知道他己经很难单纯思考圣经 因为己经充满各种思绪
楼主: outra (奥特罗)   2016-06-09 15:01:00
老鱼说:麻烦铁三角二号闪边凉快,这帖是给铁三角一号的
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 15:55:00
七龙珠都是二号先出来应战的。突然令我想起神学家另一个荒谬的例子。上次我批判上帝不是先预知A的行为才预定A的,这位神学家却说我批判这样的“预知”,也同时必然要批判预定。XD 真是胡扯。上帝永恒的旨意预定了一切所以祂预知,这位神学家无视这样的逻辑,将预定与预知先混为一谈,这样他才能说:“你批判预知也要批判预定喔!!”。
作者: jacklin2002   2016-06-09 16:23:00
就跟 不孝顺仍是儿女=提倡不孝顺 一样啊那篇到现在他还在胡扯...懒得回了
作者: sCHb68 (sCHb68)   2016-06-09 16:35:00
不过希望神学家能好好回答老鱼这篇的问题。
作者: theologe (表达你我的信仰~)   2016-06-09 20:08:00
老鱼这篇引文引错了,应该是引recapitulation的部分,再来看跟复和观的关系。
作者: caleb13241 (ck13241)   2016-06-09 23:39:00
春天大还没表达圣经是人系统化整理出来的有什么看法

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