Re: [讨论] 道光或林则徐如何禁烟才不会跟英国翻脸?

楼主: fw190a (las)   2022-01-08 21:05:50
※ 引述《proletariat (Die Ruinen von Athen)》之铭言:
: 黄一农院士有一篇文章,"天朝与远人"有提到,
: 英国在鸦片战争前的国会辩论时,关键人物小斯汤东是怎么看的:
有些桥段明显不是该议员讲的,
不过这边只挑,提及该议员言论,但我认为解释有所偏离的部分。
其它恕删。
: 小斯当东本人早在1830年代初即反对鸦片销华,并主张现在应逐渐减少输入中国的鸦片。
: 但当林则徐严禁鸦片和逼迫义律服从等消息陆续传回英国后,却引起他更大的不满,他一
: 方面形容林则徐的措施是最“严厉与血腥的”,强烈批评其中不合理之处,加上相关做法
He did not object to the sanguinary laws to be administered by Mr.
Commissioner Lin generally, but he did object to such sanguinary laws being
acted upon retrospectively against those who had come to China on the faith
of the old law.
他不反对严厉血腥的法律,
而是反对这些法律被朔及既往的用在只知旧法而来的人身上。
: 在他主张的
: 几项理由中,特别指出林则徐“货尽没官,人即正法”的措施不合理之处,强调即使清朝
: 对欧洲的国际法一无所知,但也不能违背自身的法令。他解释清廷相关的律法:以往外国
: 人仅在犯谋杀罪时才有可能被处死,......至于走私方面的法规,最初仅没受在陆上查获
: 的走私货物。1837年时,新的官方规定扩大查缉走私范围到开进广州港内的船只上,
: ......但无论如何,绝对不会没收在广州港外〔指伶仃洋(Lintin)〕的货物......。但林
The former course had been when the edicts were not to suspend the trade of
the country, and the last step was to expel those who set the laws at
defiance. Up to the arrival of Commissioner Lin there was no other law. There
had been no other penalty against the importation of opium than these—the
remedy upon the property of the person, extending to confiscation of all
found within the river of Canton; but there was no law which reached property
out of that river.
原先作法是在禁令被违反时,停止与该国交易,最后一步则是驱逐犯法之人。
直到林则徐到来前没有其他法律。
原本关于禁止鸦片的法律,只有处理犯法者的财产,没收至多于广东内河的。
但没有涉及内河以外的部分。
: 则徐来广州时,却带来了最严厉与血腥的法令,当外国人被发现与鸦片趸船有关时,便
: 性命之虞,且不问理由,将趸船上的鸦片充公,......我相信大家都同意是非常不公义
: 残暴的。上述引文清楚地反映了小斯当东的贸易经验及他对中国律法的认知。以往的
When the imperial commissioner arrived at Canton he
brought with him a new law of a very extraordinary and severe character a law
denouncing death against any foreigner that traded in opium, and subjecting
his property to confiscation to the crown.
林则徐带来的新法律,将进行鸦片贸易的宣告死刑,并且充公他的财产。
However severe this law, it might be justified.
It might be said, that we must submit to it or relinquish our trade;
but to attempt to punish those under the new law, who had arrived in
China under the old law, must be condemned by all parties as a most
atrocious injustice.
但无论法律如何严厉,仍有其正当性。
仍可以说,我们必须同意,或停止贸易。
但是试图以新法律惩罚在旧法律之下到达中国者,
必须被所有人谴责为残暴的不正义。
There was no law before in China by which the hair of the head of any
European could have been touched for smuggling.
在此之前,中国没有法律能碰走私欧洲人一根寒毛。
: 小斯当东一贯坚持的国家尊严,他提到若不捍卫此时英人在华所受到的侮辱和贬抑,不久
: ,印度也会发生同样的情况,危及大英帝国的尊严。至于是否真有出兵的必要,他认为鉴
Let the House recollect that our empire in the East was founded on the force
of opinion; and if we submitted to the degrading insults of China,—the time
would not be far distant when our political ascendancy in India would be at
an end.
希望议会好好想想,我们在东方的帝国是建立于声望之上,
如果我们服从于中国每况愈下的羞辱,
我们在印度的政治优势不久就会消失。
: 简言之,本来英国国会对卖鸦片就有争议,但是林则徐说在领海外查获鸦片就货物没官,
: 人即正法,没有合法审判程序,那万一被人陷害夹带鸦片的不就冤死了!
简言之,以这位议员的意见来说,
跟人即正法、审判程序、或后来要求船主签的合约都无关。
(但他有对一条China Courts Bill,要求提出修正,增加保护条文,
以进一步保护英国人)
他抓住的点是,被以死亡胁迫,交出鸦片销毁那批人,受到了不当待遇,
因为法律不应朔及既往。
不过他对部分法律的诠释也是偏主观认定,但这边就先停在这。
作者: proletariat (Die Ruinen von Athen)   2022-01-08 22:21:00
厉害 他的国会发言纪录很长一个段落我完全没耐心看完
作者: CGT (Peter)   2022-01-08 23:30:00
林也只是按照皇帝旨意用严刑峻法恫吓英夷商人,没想到英国人用自己法治的观念套用到中国,说不定假装配合一下跪舔就过了

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