Re: [心得] 生酮饮食杂想 - 集中式生酮饮食

楼主: dkz321 (Dkz321)   2016-04-25 10:09:39
由于原文实在太长,因此就不贴原文了。
你提到的第一篇论文:Is advice for breakfast consumption justified? Results from
a short-term dietary
and metabolic experiment in young healthy men. (Martin et al.,2000)
文章实际上要说的是,
早餐摄取高热量与低热量饮食的比较,结果发现低热量饮食比较好,
而论文的设计没有用低热量饮食vs完全不吃。
A high glycaemic response was observed in the morning after the high-energy br
eakfast period, while there was a peak of free fatty acids after the low-energ
y breakfast. The high-energy breakfast induced a strong inhibition of fat oxid
ation throughout the day. Although long-term adaptation to a high-energy break
fast cannot be excluded, the high-energy breakfast in this study did not appea
r to be favourable to health. Our results do not support the current advice to
consume more energy at breakfast.
第二篇提到的论文: Breakfast, blood glucose, and cognition.(Benton D, & Parker
PY,1998)
Abstract提到:早餐禁食会让记忆力和认知能力下降,而喝含葡萄糖补充品可逆转此现象
morning fasting was found to adversely affect the ability to recall a word lis
t and a story read aloud, as well as recall items while counting backwards,
the decline in performance associated with not eating breakfast was reversed b
y the consumption of a glucose-supplemented drink
第三篇提到的论文:Breakfast reduces declines in attention and memory over the
morning in
schoolchildren.(Wesnes KA et al., 2003)
这篇更让我笑出来,论文标题本来就已经在谈:帮助减缓注意力和记忆力下降的早餐
所以不用看内文就已经知道这article不是在论述不吃早餐能提升认知能力
不过我还是看了内文,文中提到:
只喝葡萄糖饮料而完全不吃早餐,会让注意力和记忆力下降,
不过吃麦片则能维持这方面的认知能力。
The glucose drink and No breakfast conditions were followed by declines in att
ention and memory, but the declines were significantly reduced in the two cere
al conditions. This study provides objective evidence that a typical breakfast
of cereal rich in complex carbohydrates can help maintain mental performance
over the morning.
第四篇提到的论文:The effect of a lowcarbohydrate diet on performance, hormona
l and metabolic responses to a 30-s bout of supramaximal exercise.
本论文提到:
1.低碳饮食对于无氧运动的表现有害,因为会减少肌肉内的肝糖储存以及降低葡萄糖分解
作用
2.在运动后三天内休息时减少碳水化合物摄取会增加交感神经作用(个人解读,本文没提
到增加交感神经作用对运动表现会怎么样,无法以此来解读增加交感神经作用就能提升运
动表现,其实个人认为,过高的交感神经作用对人体其实是有害的,例如血压升高,注意
力不集中等等)
(1) a L-CHO diet is detrimental to anaerobic work capacity, possibly because o
f a reduced muscle glycogen store and decreased rate of glycolysis; (2) reduce
d carbohydrate intake for 3 days enhances activity of the sympathoadrenal syst
em at rest and after exercise.
第五篇提到的论文:Relative effects of glycogen depletion and previous exercise
on muscle force and endurance capacity
由于图书馆没买到相关期刊,无法阅读全文,
只能看研究设计前面的部分
文中提到:
运动前完全不摄取碳水化合物,或过量的摄取碳水化合物,都可能会让肌肉持久力下降
Endurance capacity of human vastus lateralis muscles was observed 24 h after h
ard exercise followed by either a carbohydrate-restricted or a carbohydrate-lo
aded diet (depletion and repletion conditions). In a control condition the sub
jects did no previous exercise and ate their normal diet. Each of these condit
ions was followed by an experimental protocol in which the five male subjects
made a series of alternating 25-s static contractions of each leg at 50% maxim
al voluntary contraction until one leg failed to achieve the required force (T
lim). Glycogen concentration before the experimental protocol in both legs was
significantly lower in the depletion than in the repletion condition. Muscle
lactate and creatine phosphate concentrations were within normal limits before
the static contractions. The number of contractions the repleted (12.7 +/- 2.
2) and depleted (10.3 +/- 1.5) legs could sustain before Tlim were not differe
nt from each other, but both were 35% (P less than 0.05) fewer than the contro
l (17.6 +/- 3.0).
欢迎各位帮忙补充这paper的内容
第六篇提到的论文:Interactions of cortisol, testosterone, and resistance train
ing: influence of circadian rhythms.
嗯,的确没错,大部分人傍晚时训练的状况其实较好
第七篇:Changing concepts on the control of growth hormone secretion in man.
这篇完全没提到“为什么吃高GI碳水(化合物)”
整篇Article都在论述生长激素(Growth hormone),标题早就一目了然告诉读者这篇不是
在讲高低GI饮食
第八篇:Intracellular mechanisms underlying increases in glucose uptake in res
ponse to insulin or exercise in skeletal muscle.
的确没错,运动能增加Insulin hypersensitivity,能有效的帮助降血糖
本文没有要引战的意思,
我起初看到你po的文,想说很有心贴出这么多论文标题,就打算每篇找出来确认后真实性
后再佐证你的看法,
没想到事与愿违。
本篇打脸文重点:
没证据显示完全不吃早餐、训练前完全低碳饮食、高GI食物能有效减脂增肌
当然,没证据显示不代表一定不行,但仍欢迎提供相应的证据出来供大家参考及讨论
作者: OnceAFreak (阿皮)   2016-04-25 10:16:00
推 谢谢讨鞭 这些都是书上的reference我没有全PO 我会再检视书里的内容早餐的话 是事实 生理周期贺尔蒙变化 就有足够解释皮质醇早上会最高峰 此时吃高碳早餐 造成胰岛素和高皮质醇的combo作用 肯定会加快脂肪堆积
作者: popstarkirby (有梗的POP)   2016-04-25 10:27:00
这种饮食难在维持..外食一下就破功了
作者: OnceAFreak (阿皮)   2016-04-25 10:28:00
我是提倡不吃 '高碳'早餐或不吃或少量不吃早餐本质是希望搭配12~14小时的断食并允许少量的MCT油和蛋白补充我发现有些论文你略过 然后说'没证据' 也太武断除了早餐那边还要再研究 其余原文我再补充了
作者: w1920385 (凤凰城种仙人掌)   2016-04-25 11:30:00
这篇专业打脸,赞。作者写的limitation之前的原po都跳过还直接乱下结论...
作者: dakkk (我是牛我反刍)   2016-04-25 11:44:00
不吃早餐是因为o大要8:16断食不过训练前不吃碳水 我的确有点怀疑
楼主: dkz321 (Dkz321)   2016-04-25 12:02:00
我每篇article都有提出解说,没有略过哪一篇直接说没证据。学理上: cortisol 能lipolysis (相关article 请寻 Effects of cortisol on lipolysis and regional interstitialglycerol levels in humans. [Djurrhuus CB 2002]),而insulin的确能lipogenesis没错,两者可互相抵消作用而非加成作用,不明白你提出的观点的基础为何。高碳饮食本来就会造成lipogenesis,这是学界公认。但早餐断食能否有效增肌你没有提出相关证据
作者: ppininder (ppininder)   2016-04-25 12:52:00
给推,D大,所以还是建议训练前补充少量碳水吧?
作者: OnceAFreak (阿皮)   2016-04-25 13:07:00
适当的cortisol的确能燃脂我也有提 他确实是catabolichormone但不代表他能真的抵销胰岛素 事实上 high cortisol=higher insulin resistancehttp://body.io/breakfast-important-domino-day/ 而跳早餐的目的是减脂 非增肌上篇文只说跳早餐帮助'减脂'Low carb Diet induced changes in sympatho-adrenalactivityduring submaximal exercise in relation to substrate utilization in man.你漏这篇
作者: xorz (董生)   2016-04-25 13:53:00
感觉好像进到肌肉沙滩英文版了!不过认真推
楼主: dkz321 (Dkz321)   2016-04-25 13:55:00
你po的那个网站没提到cortisol与insulin会"combo"加成lipogenesis也没提到high cortisol= insulin resistance且若真的insulin resistance, insulin难以作用,不就难以进行您所谓的combo lipogenesis? 这有矛盾喔
作者: OnceAFreak (阿皮)   2016-04-25 13:59:00
...你应该知道 insulin resistance代表身体会分泌更多胰岛素吧。。 网站有说 higher fat storage
楼主: dkz321 (Dkz321)   2016-04-25 13:59:00
再者,你原文没提到作者,让我以为那是你提到的内容而非论文标题,因此并无故意略过。且你给出的标题我搜不到article, 欢迎放上链接
作者: OnceAFreak (阿皮)   2016-04-25 14:01:00
难以作用 血糖量不变 不就要更多胰岛素...
楼主: dkz321 (Dkz321)   2016-04-25 14:07:00
insulin resistance造成insulin很高不等于就能让越多糖类合成脂肪啊好比今天港口封了,船只无法入港卸货,海上停满了船只,但不代表货物都能卸下啊
作者: OnceAFreak (阿皮)   2016-04-25 14:11:00
..我想您再仔细看那篇文 Diet induced changes in sympatho-adrenal activity during submaximal exercise in relation to substrate utilization in man.作者我有标 Jansson et al.high cortisol& insulin确实让港口 '扩大'了insulin解除封条higher insulin=higher chance=higher possible fat gain
楼主: dkz321 (Dkz321)   2016-04-25 14:39:00
该文在说:低碳饮食能减脂。 这已经是学界公认的了没错。但我没看到早餐完全禁食,只吃你提到的那点食物能健康的减脂。 只讨论单纯减脂的话很简单,不止早餐,三餐不吃都能减脂,但不健康而已
作者: pictur23   2016-04-25 14:42:00
合理的怀疑 慢慢的尝试
楼主: dkz321 (Dkz321)   2016-04-25 14:43:00
你概念已经混淆了,resistance 亦即身体无法利用胰岛素造成胰岛素升高,而胰岛素升高但无法被利用去进行lipogenesi
作者: OnceAFreak (阿皮)   2016-04-25 14:51:00
特别说早餐 是因为那是燃脂黄金期 如果不吃碳的话 When food is ingested at this time, and more notably when carbs are a part of this meal, insulin rises and fat-burning shuts down. Insulin and cortisolare antagonistic hormones and when simultaneouslyelevated they trigger the fat-storing enzyme lipoprotein lipase to increase while attenuating the effect of fat-freeing hormone-sensitive lipase[6-8]. Not only does this combination therefore dampenfat-burning, but it signals the body tostoreat.网站段落如果早餐禁食无法健康减脂 就不会那么多IF倡导者了把名词厘清好了 high cortisol=more insulin resistan
作者: yuchen092282 (YYC)   2016-04-25 22:55:00
佩服原po一篇一篇paper查证… 医学相关科系觉得惭愧QQ
作者: DLCSEA (类钻之海)   2016-04-26 09:44:00
建议引用论文不要光凭书上怎么说,而是直接找原论文来看,有些作者若不够严谨,很容易断章取义,为引用而引用,如果光看书上引用的论点,很可能会搞错。不过话是这么说,很多人撰写论文参考某本书上内容,该内容引用哪篇paper往往撰写论文时就直接照书上引用(而非引用该书),却往往没去找原文来看(省时间),若口试遇到认真的教授(或帮教授看的研究生XD)去一篇篇找出引用的论文看(通常是该领域专长才会有sense,觉得好像不太合理),常常会出问题。
作者: Yuwuen (游玩)   2016-04-26 20:08:00
推推
作者: daredwolf (熊猫)   2016-04-26 21:16:00
推原po与原原po, 专业推
作者: Jared9527 (阿屁)   2016-04-27 02:32:00
推!如果要引用论文讲一些小观念的话,最好稍微看过论文,至少不要犯一些简单的错。如果引用的论文是你写文章的主轴的话,建议整篇都阅读。引用论文 研究是一种代表证据力很大的说词,但这样有力量的说词是要付出相对大的责任的。加油!不过不管怎样,我在两位的讨论中受益良多
作者: xinyuxiao (果果子)   2016-04-27 14:19:00
医学苦手表示可以写一篇常人版的吗QQ

Links booklink

Contact Us: admin [ a t ] ucptt.com