[讨论] FanGraphs作家认为该修改铲人规则

楼主: abc2090614 (casperxdd)   2015-09-19 22:55:06
http://goo.gl/oih3Gw
Chris Coghlan, the Takeout Slide Rule, and Catcher Collisions
by Craig Edwards - September 18,2015
我就翻重点就好
一开始他引用了 MLB 对以滑垒防碍阻杀的规则 6.05(m) (不是7.09(f), 那是错的),这
和我们理解差不多就略过...
As a matter of practical application, players are generally allowed to take
out the fielder so long as they are within an arms length of the bag when
they slide. Under the current application of the rule, Coghlan’s slide was
legal. Still, as the image below shows Coghlan was pretty far out of the
baseline and that his leg was fairly high. (The image hopefully isn’t too
cringeworthy — the worse, side-angle footage was purposely avoided.).
以现行 MLB 执法情况来说,只要跑者在铲野手时手碰得到垒包,通常都没什么问题。(根
据规则6.05) 所以以此来说,Coghlan 这一铲是合法的。不过可以看见 Coghlan 确实
离垒线相当远,而且脚抬得很高。(见图,作者刻意选一张姜正浩脚没弯往奇怪方向的)
Although the intent of the slide might not be to cause injury, due to the
nature of the play, the risk of injury is present on all takeout slides, and
it does happen, both to fielders and runners. Coghlan’s slide was pretty far
from the bag, but no farther than Kang himself has previously slid — and
compare the height of Coghlan’s legs above to Adrian Beltre‘s on this play:
虽然铲人的目的不是使人受伤,但对跑者和野手两方,都确实有受伤的风险。Coghlan 虽
然离垒包有段距离,但其实没有姜正浩之前铲得一次远(见图)。我们也可以比较 Coghlan
和 Beltre 铲人时脚的高度(见图)
This is not to say that Beltre is a dirty player or that Kang is to blame for
his injury, but only to point out that, at the moment, these actions are an
accepted part of baseball. While all will not agree, it seems reasonable that
if injuries could be prevented without ruining the fabric of the game, rules
should be implemented to do the same. The recent lesson here comes from the
rules surrounding catcher collisions.
这意思不是说 Beltre 很脏,或是姜正浩该躲不躲才会受伤,而是要指出此行为在大联盟
中目前是允许的。虽然不是人人同意,但如果能在不大幅更动球赛内容的情况下,避免受
伤的可能,则联盟应该修改规则,就像最近的本垒冲撞规则一样。
...以下解释 Posey rule,省略...
It is important to note that MLB did not actually outlaw collisions at home
plate. They addressed the principal causes of collisions, instructed teams on
the same, and while the rule did cause some confusion in its first year, the
rule appears to be by and large successful.
重点是,联盟并没有完全禁止本垒冲撞。反之,是提出本垒冲撞的具体规则后,再和球团
沟通。虽然第一年改规则时确实有些疑问,但目前看来是很成功的规则。
The first change does make a lot of sense. Others have called for changes in
past years or discussed the potential for changes, and Mike Bates requested
today that the first rule above also apply to the takeout slide. Colleges
have already taken action. Below is Rule 8, Section 4 for NCAA baseball:
Posey Rule 第一条确实有道理(跑者不可为了造成身体接触而离开跑垒的直线)。其他人也
有讨论过类似的修改,像 Mike Bates 就认为也应该让这条规则适用在铲人滑垒上。大学
棒球则早就已经有类似规定。以下是 NCAA 规则 8.4
SECTION 4. The intent of the force-play-slide rule is to ensure the
safety of all players. This is a safety and an interference rule. Whether the
defense could have completed the double play has no bearing on the
applicability of this rule. This rule pertains to a force-play situation at
any base, regardless of the number of outs.
第四节:本条规则是为了确保选手安全。为安全和妨碍球赛类规则。防守方是否能完成阻
杀和本规则效力无关,并和哪一垒及该局出局数多少无关。
a. On any force play, the runner must slide on the ground before the base
and in a direct line between the two bases. It is permissible for the slider’
s momentum to carry him through the base in the baseline extended (see
diagram).
a. 在阻碍野手阻杀时,跑者必须在地上直线滑进垒,且在两垒之直线上滑垒。跑者可
以利用自身动量,在垒线的延伸上滑出垒包。
Exception—A runner need not slide directly into a base as long as the
runner slides or runs in a direction away from the fielder to avoid making
contact or altering the play of the fielder. Interference shall not be called.
例外:在没有身体接触或影响守备的可能性之情况,本条规则不适用。
1) “On the ground” means either a head-first slide or a slide with one
leg and buttock on the ground before the base.
1) 在地上进垒,意指扑垒或是单脚和屁股触地之滑垒。
2) “Directly into a base” means the runner’s entire body (feet, legs,
trunk and arms) must stay in a straight line between the bases.
2) 直线滑进垒,意指跑者之全身(含脚、腿、躯干和手)都必须保持在两垒间直线上
The NCAA rule goes on with a chart and explains that the runner’s momentum
can carry him through the bag, that pop-up slides are legal, and that the
penalty for violating the rule with or without contact is declaring both the
runner and batter out. The above rule only applies to force outs so those
players attempting to go for a double or steal a base can still try to avoid
tags by moving their bodies wide of the bag and reaching out with their arms
like on this Jason Heyward steal.
NCAA 的规则附解说图,说明跑者可以利用自身动量滑出垒包,滑垒后可立刻站起,并且
违反规则时,不论有无造成接触,跑者及打者皆判出局。因为只对阻杀适用,所以为了
抢二垒安打或盗垒的跑者,仍然可以滑出垒线以手触垒来避免刺杀,如 Jason Heyward
之盗垒(见影片)。
This rule will not eliminate the risk of injury entirely. The Beltre slide
from above would likely still be legal. The Brett Lawrie play from earlier in
the year would likely still be legal, but if it meant an automatic out,
players would likely stop the type of takeout slide that hurt Kang, and it
could also help prevent runner injuries as well considering the plays of Neil
Walker (here) and Peter Bourjos (here). The takeout slide is not going to be
eliminated, but it will not even be altered without a change to the rules.
The outside the baseline, legs out swipe serves no purpose for the runner
other than to impede the thrower after the out is made. Potentially injurious
plays should be prevented if they have virtually no effect on how the game is
played. Telling players to slide directly into the bag is an easy fix and
hardly affects the game at all.
这样的规则不会完全去除受伤风险。上图 Beltre 的滑垒应该还是合法。Brett Lawrie
之前的滑垒也应该是合法。但如果会直接被判出局,则球员应该不会再作出像造成姜正浩
受伤的铲人滑垒,也同时减低跑者受伤的可能。如 Neil Walker 和 Peter Bourjos 的两
个例子(见影片)。铲人不会完全消失,但如果不改规则,什么改变都不会有。离开垒线的
扫堂腿对跑垒本身没有意义,单纯是为了出局后才阻碍传球。如果棒球本身影响不大,则
应该防止类似的高风险动作。叫球员直线滑进垒是一个简单又对球赛影响不大的改法。完
==
我是不知道觉得这个play一点问题都没有的人是怎么想啦。球员本身的意图没有问题,
我同意,因为目标就是阻止传球。可是既然会造成受伤,代表应该想想改进办法吧?而
不是一直在dirty play/clean play上打转。Coghlan 铲姜这个案例美国人也是战得乱七
八糟,跟亚洲风气无关好吗?这篇文才出来没多久下面就战了快一百篇,ESPN的 Keith
Law 也说这是dirty play然后下面也是战得一塌糊涂。如果觉得生活中什么事情没“错”
就不需要思考的人,大概还无法理解吧?
作者: EEERRIICC (大尾魯蛇)   2015-09-19 22:57:00
知我者原po,刚想翻这篇你已发文
作者: ccl007 (.......)   2015-09-19 22:58:00
西瓜接受访问说这不是dirty play 今天触身球却说对方故意
作者: TokyoHard (东京难)   2015-09-19 22:59:00
我赞成合乎规则的都可以.大家来打架野球吧!
作者: Zuleta   2015-09-19 23:00:00
买鸡排
作者: fountainNess (秋本平吉千人将)   2015-09-19 23:01:00
好文推
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:01:00
同意 造成球员受伤的是规则的模糊而非球员的动作
作者: ennakura (苹果酒)   2015-09-19 23:02:00
作者: elong (人只是需要被需要)   2015-09-19 23:02:00
...之前不是一堆人在说姜也在铲人哪有差吗? 要改风向吗
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:03:00
现有规则就是可以铲人来破坏双杀阿 有错吗?
作者: elong (人只是需要被需要)   2015-09-19 23:03:00
而且现在根本不是什么模糊,是现在合法 可是没限制危险动作
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:04:00
如果可以修改规则避免的话很好阿
作者: elong (人只是需要被需要)   2015-09-19 23:05:00
本来有人讲说姜也在铲而且跟这个case没什么不同耶
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:05:00
对阿 没什么不同阿 一样都是铲人破坏双杀阿
作者: wang7752 (^^b)   2015-09-19 23:05:00
???是没有不同阿?? 你还在跳针啥
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:06:00
这play第一局就发生了 海盗如果觉得Coghlan是故意要让人受伤的话早就砸下去了好吗 还让他打三次
作者: leoturkey (灰ㄍㄟ)   2015-09-19 23:06:00
Coghlan没错 错的是规则
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:07:00
打中文很难理解吗
作者: vergilmir (.)   2015-09-19 23:07:00
朝着垒包铲一点都没有问题 但是朝旁边铲=快改好吗
作者: ccl007 (.......)   2015-09-19 23:08:00
红鸟战绩够 可以砸Rizzo!
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:08:00
谁会这么无聊冒着自己也会受伤的风险目的是让对方受伤阿
作者: wang7752 (^^b)   2015-09-19 23:08:00
所以从头到尾根本不是动作的问题阿 事规则的问题阿
作者: TSbb (贷款三十年债开始)   2015-09-19 23:09:00
好多人都没看内文姜正浩之前铲得一次远 Beltre 铲人时脚的高度。 结果扯上种族,难道姜之前是在........?挑着Coghlan讲却不知道自己家许多选手都做过更过分的
作者: leonini (leoni)   2015-09-19 23:17:00
这篇完全在讲规则 结果还是坚持要拉人战
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:20:00
改个规则跑者必须在垒线上 否则都算妨碍守备就可以了
作者: wsx89589468 (kkpitch)   2015-09-19 23:23:00
觉得没错=不支持改规则,我不懂这逻辑是怎磨出来的就像楼上讲的,完全在讲规则 结果还是坚持要拉人战
作者: ccl007 (.......)   2015-09-19 23:24:00
既然合于现在规则又不是dirty play小动作 为何要改咧?
作者: mightymouse (翻堕罗流大师)   2015-09-19 23:25:00
因为会让人受伤
作者: TSbb (贷款三十年债开始)   2015-09-19 23:26:00
同楼上,对选手有保障就好。
作者: ppoll2 (Stat Counseling)   2015-09-19 23:26:00
就是个dirty play啊
作者: TSbb (贷款三十年债开始)   2015-09-19 23:27:00
不过打脸过去一天高潮的anti
作者: ccl007 (.......)   2015-09-19 23:28:00
有人在坚持这不是dirty play又觉得要改规则 一下又超硬汉
作者: leonini (leoni)   2015-09-19 23:29:00
规则是客观的 脏不脏是主观 合乎规则却容易造成受伤为何不改…
作者: ccl007 (.......)   2015-09-19 23:29:00
说怎么不闪? 搞得有点乱就是了 ^ ^
作者: IABigHead (BigHead)   2015-09-19 23:29:00
简单来说就是跑者回归自己场上的目的"让自己安全进垒"不要作其他高受伤风险跟自己进垒无关的动作
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:30:00
你有事吗? 没改骑车一定要戴安全帽时不戴安全帽很dirty吗?不戴安全帽是不是比较容易受伤? 受伤是不是怪骑车不戴帽?
作者: ccl007 (.......)   2015-09-19 23:31:00
没事 看不懂 继续硬汉吧!
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:31:00
这是不是dirty play跟改规则让球员比较不易受伤有何相关?照现在规则就是大家跑二垒就是往人铲破坏双杀 完全不回避硬挡受伤也不是跑者的错 这真的有这么难理解吗
作者: Werth (鬍某)   2015-09-19 23:44:00
称不称得上dirty play 就要看你怎么定义它了文章也说了Coghlan "离垒线相当远,而且脚抬得很高"我不知道大家对棒球上的dirty play 是什么介定
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:47:00
是否dirty play的确大家观感不同 但事实是该场Coghlan好好的打了三次都没被砸
作者: Werth (鬍某)   2015-09-19 23:47:00
个人觉得这有些dirty 不然还有哪些例子才算?
作者: TokyoHard (东京难)   2015-09-19 23:48:00
我觉得一直拿 有没有砸 来定义是很奇怪的
作者: Werth (鬍某)   2015-09-19 23:49:00
有想到一个好像是A-ROD 在别人接球时出声干扰 这算吗? XD
作者: shoshobe   2015-09-19 23:49:00
真的很爱提没被砸耶XDDD
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:49:00
所以AROD被砸了
作者: ice80712 (我很有事)   2015-09-19 23:50:00
本垒冲撞修改之后 希望二游一样跟进 毕竟球员都是资产
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-19 23:51:00
不然呢 球迷当然可以自己定义球员行为 但你不觉得场上的球员每个都打了这么久球 不会比球迷更知道什么事是故意什么事情是'常态该做的吗
作者: leonini (leoni)   2015-09-20 00:13:00
报复最好还是拆开看啦 不然皇家的对手肯定特别脏(?
作者: ccl007 (.......)   2015-09-20 00:15:00
而且dirty play跟dirty player最好要分开一下 避免开花
作者: nolander (自己国家自己救)   2015-09-20 00:22:00
喔耶实在很有耐心,阅读能力有问题的解释也是浪费时间啦
作者: kokal (细菌)   2015-09-20 00:31:00
图挑的不错,看起来距离很远NCAA的规则使跑垒员跟持球员在优先度变得不对等本垒要滑直线,所以捕手不能提早在本垒板上,那这边就2b,ss不得提前进去二垒垒包囉?
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-20 00:40:00
这其实有点不一样 本垒那个规则通常不是封杀状态而这个CASE很高比例都是封杀状态下跑者要破坏双杀二游守备者并不需要守护垒包就算之前没Posey rule也不会有捕手封杀状态还跟跑者撞击吧
作者: asd831129 (SBP)   2015-09-20 01:14:00
这规则修改比较麻烦的点在通常铲人者都已经出局了,罚他们出局没有意义,除非是伐一垒跑者出局,可是这样很
作者: OoyaoO (你今天崩潰了嗎 囧)   2015-09-20 01:16:00
现在状况也是一样阿 裁判认定你妨碍守备的话就算连传都没
作者: asd831129 (SBP)   2015-09-20 01:16:00
奇怪? 而防守者通常都已经闪很远,还是会收到攻击
作者: kokal (细菌)   2015-09-20 01:46:00
有机会破坏双杀的跑者在铲下去前,通常都没完成封杀,该有的权力还是有
作者: TSbb (贷款三十年债开始)   2015-09-20 01:48:00
出局之前还是有连续动作啊,难倒出局瞬间跑者要结束动能 XD
作者: erotica (eee)   2015-09-20 04:00:00
规定要离开直线需用头部扑垒好了 来比谁硬
作者: MindWork (.....)   2015-09-20 07:51:00
早该禁了 这种杀猪公规则可以存活这么久本来就没道理
作者: sdfsonic (S音)   2015-09-20 07:59:00
作者: hayato01 (kunsou)   2015-09-20 08:42:00
表达能力太差只会说别人阅读能力不好你觉得是错的,别人就不能觉得是对的?跟你不一样就是没有思考吗?
作者: phoenix286 (团子大家族)   2015-09-20 09:26:00
同意 规则有修改的余地
作者: wolf0531   2015-09-20 23:37:00
礼貌野球???

Links booklink

Contact Us: admin [ a t ] ucptt.com