HBO篮球作家Bill Simmons在2/1号的时候访问了前公牛总教练Tom Thibodeau。
(连结：https://goo.gl/)
在长达一小时的访问中，Simmons问到了Thibs对于勇士队的看法。节录如下：
(11:10)
Bill:
Is it fair to say that Draymond is like the ultimate Thib’s player, like the
one guy in the league you would’ve loved coaching the most?
Draymond会是你心目中最理想最能体现你理念的球员，这样说公不公平？他应该是联盟里
你最希望能教导的球员吧？
Tom:
Well, you know the, I’d say this; it’s like any coach would love. And yeah
I think if you went back to you know, Michigan State, and you can tell his
relationship with Tom Izzo and the way Michigan State won when they were
there and then he gets to go to Golden State and his relationship with the
coaches there and his teammates and the way he just has got so much better. He
’d be a great fit on any team and in any system. And he’s probably the most
unique player in the league because he can play multiple positions, including
the center position, and when they go small at the end and he goes to the
center position. Most teams, I would say all the teams that do that, they
sacrifice their defence and rebounding. And when Golden State does it with
Draymond going to the center position and Andre Iguodala going to the power
forward position, they sacrifice no defence and no rebounding. And they are
incredibly dangerous in transition because they all can bust out with it and
put enormous pressure on your defensive transition.
恩，你知道，我会这样说；任何教练都会希望能教他。而且如果你回头看密西根州大学，
你可以看到他和 Tom Izzo (他大学教练) 的关系，看他们赢球的方式，然后他到了勇士
队后，他和教练以及队友的关系，以及他能进步这么多的方式。这样的他能很好的帮助任
何对伍或是任何体系。更何况他应该是联盟里最独特的球员，因为他能打各种位置，包刮
中锋，当他们在比赛尾声摆上小阵容的时候他便移到中锋。大部分的队伍，我敢说全部的
队伍，一旦开始用小阵容，他们便牺牲掉了防守和篮板。而当勇士队摆上小阵容，并且让
Draymond打中锋，Andre Iguodala 打大前锋，他们一丁点防守和篮板都没有被牺牲。反
之，他们在攻防转换的时候变得具有无比的威胁性，因为他们能全力冲刺，对你转换间的
防守造成极大的压力。
Bill:
So it seems like the biggest mistake teams are making in this season is
trying to replicate what Golden State is doing because they feel like that’s
the only way they’re gonna beat them, and yet, I’ve made this point on a
couple podcasts before but, you have Curry who’s the greatest shooter of all
time and one of the best offensive players of all time, you have Klay
Thompson who’s the second best shooter in the league right now. So they
have, just by sheer fluke, the two best shooters in the league on a 30-team
league. And on top of that, they have the only guy in the league who can play
the 5 when he’s really a stretch 4 or whatever the hell Draymond is, I don’
t even think he has a position. And then Iguodala can play power forward and
as you said they don’t sacrifice defense, why are people trying to replicate
something that’s impossible to replicate?
所以现在看起来很多队伍在这季犯下最大的错误便是想复制勇士队的队形，因为他们觉得
这是他们能击败他的唯一方法，但是，我在几个之前的广播节目也有提到，勇士队有
Curry，史上最伟大的射手也是史上最强的进攻球员之一，又有Klay Thompson ，目前联
盟第二好的射手。所以他们莫名其妙就在这个有三十支队伍的联盟里有了两个最好的射手
。更扯的是，他们有联盟唯一能打五号位的延伸四号(Stretch 4)，其实我也搞不清楚到
底Draymond是什么鬼，我觉得他任何位置都能打。而Iguodala可以打大前锋，然后就像你
说的，他们没有牺牲掉防守，为什么大家还想要复制根本无法复制的东西？
Tom:
Well and that’s a great point. I guess in our league, you know they always
say like in the NFL, the team that wins it, copycat league. In some cases, I
think that holds true in the NBA as well. And that’s what I love about the
way Pop coaches. You know I think Pop, if you look at his career, you know
every year he’s played to the strengths of this team, and he’s covered up
his weaknesses. And if you went way back to the beginning with Robinson and
Duncan, that was very much a power team and played great defence and they
pounded you, and then when David Robinson retired, they went to more of a
pace, push, emphasizing the strength of Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, and of
course getting Diaw, a stretch 4, and they shot more 3’s and opened up the
game. And now the acquisition of Lamarcus Aldridge and David West,
emphasizing the strength of Kawhi Leonard, they’ve become more of a post-up,
shooting less 3’s, but still highly efficient offensively and playing
unbelievable individual and team defence. And they’re trying to do it their
way, they feel that that’s their best chance of having the ultimate success.
So I think that’s what good teams do, like they look at the strengths and
weaknesses of their team, and they try to play that way. I think the whole
trick is to move forward to being efficient and, you know, obviously to be a
top 5 offensive and defensive team, to be in the top 5 with your rebounding,
and then you look at the scoring margin, to me those are the markers that are
most important.
你说得很对。我猜想在我们联盟，人家都说像在NFL里，一旦有球队赢球，剩余的球队便
会相继模仿。某种程度上来说，我觉得NBA也是这样。这也是为什么我非常喜爱Pop执教的
方式。我认为Pop，如果你看他的执教身涯，每年他都能很好的运用他队伍的强项，并且
能掩盖缺点。而且如果你做时光机回到当初Robinson和Duncan刚开始的时候，那是支充满
内线能力和优异防守的队伍，每场比赛他们都不断和你碰撞，然后当David Robinson退休
后，他们改变了打法，利用快节奏和推进来凸显Tony Parker和Manu Ginobili的优势，当
然他们还找来了Diaw，也是个延伸四号，然后他们开始投更多的三分球以及增加球的流动
。然后在签下Lamarcus Aldridge 和David West后，加上利用Kawhi Leonard的优势，他
们变成了以低位单打为主，减少了三分的投射，但在进攻上仍然非常有效率，并且在个人
和团体的防守表现上也非常出色。他们在用自己的方式赢球，也觉得这样是最能让他们夺
冠的方式。所以我认为一个好的球队能够找出自己的优点和缺点，然后用放大优点掩盖缺
点的方式赢球。我认为其中的关键是要能更有效率，最好能在进攻和防守端都是排进前五
的球队，有前五的篮板能力，最后再来看得失分差，对我来说这些是最重要的指标。
Bill:
Alright, this is a tough question to ask because you wouldn’t know what type
of roster you’d have in this scenario, but let’s say you had the ability to
go big at a good level, or to go small at a good level, and you’re playing
the Warriors, what kind of things would you try to do to disrupt them?
好吧，接下来这个问题有点难问，因为你不知道在那样的情况下你有什么样的球员，但是
假如今天你要对上勇士队，你只能在大或小的阵容里择其一，但两种阵容实力都不错，你
会怎么选，然后你会祭出什么招式来打乱他们？
Tom:
Well I think you just hit on it because and that’s where you have to give
Golden State a tremendous amount of credit, because they, their organization
has put that roster together because they have the ability to do both. And
they do, they start big and often times play big most of the game. And then,
if they’re down at the end, they have the ability to go to the small lineup
and to change everything. And if you went back to last year’s finals, you
know in game 3, and they’re down and they’re losing big in the fourth
quarter, they went without the center they put David Lee in and they found
something that worked and then so they just kept downsizing from there, and
it worked very effectively for them. So they have the ability to do both so I
think when you’re playing Golden State, you have to have an understanding of
who they have on the floor and how you want to match up. And then also what
schemes are you going to utilize with each unit against what they have out
there because you can’t play the same way. When they go to the small lineup,
there’s some things you can do differently with the big lineup and I think
the big thing with Steph is you can’t give him a steady diet of anything.
You have to keep adjusting to make him read and react to you and even if you
do that he still has the ability to make incredibly tough shots in transition.
我想你的问题点出了一个很重要的事实，这也是为什么大家必须要给勇士队非常多的尊敬
，因为他们的球团建立了一支能大能小的球队，而他们也是如此贯彻这个理念。他们通常
在开赛的时候会摆上大阵容，甚至在比赛里大部分时间也是如此。然后，如果他们在比赛
尾声时还落后，他们便摆上小阵容，然后改变整个打法。如果你回去看去年的总决赛，第
三场的时候，他们在第四节落后许多，他们把中锋拔掉改换上David Lee后发现这个方法
行得通，于是从此他们的阵容越变越小，同时这对他们是个非常有效的方法。所以他们的
队形两者兼具，那么当你与勇士队对垒的时候，你必须去了解他们场上有谁，然后思考你
要如何应对。你也必须思考要用什么样的策略来对付他们的小阵容，而遇上大阵容的时候
又有不同的方法。我认为对付Steph最重要的一点是，你不能用同一种方法守他，你必须
不停变换策略来逼他在场上临机应变，但是纵使你这样做他还是能在转换间投进那些超难
进的球。
Bill:
Right, so as a coach that’s the type of team you lose the most sleep over
because you might do everything perfectly and they’re still gonna hit crazy
shots and beat you anyway.
是啊，所以对上这种队最能让教练失眠，因为就算你准备好了一切，他们还是能投进一堆
濠洨球然后击败你。
Tom:
Right. I think with any star player, when you prepare and you put in your
game plan together, you have to decide, okay, what are we gonna try to take
away and what are we gonna be willing to live with. And any time you put two
on the ball, you’re gonna be vulnerable in other areas. So I think you have
to determine how much are you going to do that, how are they going to
counter, and what are the shots that we wanna take away. You know, you wanna
take away, the obvious is the layups and the dunks, and then the
catch-and-shoot 3’s, specifically the corner 3’s, and you wanna limit the
free throws. Like to me those are the three areas you lock in to, but you
know the thing is with Klay and Steph they play so well off of each other,
you have to have great awareness and require multiple efforts, and you have
to be able to challenge shots, and then also finish your defense. I think
challenging shots is something that’s incredibly important. But the finish
of the defense is equally, maybe even more important, because they get a lot
of 3’s off of scramble, offensive rebounds, hustle-type plays, and if you’
re not disciplined in where you need to be, they’re gonna make you pay for
that. And Steph is so clever with the ball, you can put him in a box and he
can create just enough space to get that shot off. And you know he gets it
off so quickly he’s almost impossible to guard. But what you’re gonna have
to do with him is try to make him work as much as possible for his points.
对啊。我想当你对上任何明星球员时，当你在准备你的对战策略时，你必须决定好哪些是
我们要守住而哪些是我们可以放弃的。一旦你决定包夹，其他地方就会有漏洞出现。所以
我认为你必须决定你要多常包夹，而对方会如何反制，以及哪些球是我们要守住的。很明
显的上篮和灌篮要守住，再来是接了就投的三分球，特别是底角三分，然后要限制罚球数
量。对我来说这三点是一定要做到的，但是说实在的，Klay和Steph他们彼此合作无间，
你必须要有强大的专注力并且不断努力，然后又要能阻碍他们的投篮，最后还要能完成防
守。我认为阻碍投射非常非常重要。但是贯彻和完成防守也一样，甚至更重要，因为他们
能在混战中，抢下进攻篮板后，以及拼抢中争得很多投三分球的机会，如果你在防守站位
上没有纪律，他们会让你吃足苦头。而且当Steph持球的时候有很多招，就算你把他框住
，他还是能制造足够的空间来投篮。再加上他出手速度超快几乎不可能守住他。但是你仍
然需要逼他， 让他就算要得分也会很辛苦。
Bill:
That’s a team that, they have the most success when the game kinda goes
wonky, especially like the long offensive rebound, uh I’m sorry, long
defense rebound off a 3 or something, and people running back and somebody
lose it and all of a sudden Steph’s making a 26-footer. So much of it is
transition and some sort of screwed up play, or somebody’s over, oh I forgot
oh you’re oh oh, and then they’re making the 3. How do you coach against
that?
这样的队伍最能在比赛有点混乱的时候大量得分，尤其是在取得进攻篮板后长传，哦歹势
，是取得防守篮板后长传投三分，还有在球员回防时有人漏人然后Steph瞬间拔起来投进
一颗超大26呎三分。许多的得分都来自于攻防转换的瞬间或是打乱仗的时候，或是当有人
移防，然后啊我忘记，欸你怎么欸欸欸欸，然后他们就投进一颗三分。怎么样才能教球员
应付这种状况呢？
Tom:
Yeah I think when you’re going into the game against them, you have to make
your team understand, okay this is a team that averages 30 3’s, and they do
a lot of damage in transition. Your defense in transition is so critical, but
then you have to ask yourself okay how can we get that number down. Like you
don’t want them to do is to take 35 or 40 3’s and then they make a high
percentage. So I think the first thing is how do you get the attempts down,
and then once you get the attempts down, how else can you challenge. And then
what are the ones you absolutely don’t want them to have, I’d say the odds
would be the 2-pointers, and you don’t want them to be catch-and-shoot 3’s
from the corners. And so I think that deciding that is probably the most
important thing and then you have to say okay if we blitz and try to get the
ball out of his hands, where are they putting their people. And then maybe
blitz in certain areas of the floor but I think you have to have that
discipline and your team has to understand what you’re trying to take away,
what you’re willing to live with. Like to me if a guy, if you’re on his
body and you’re forcing him into a certain direction and making him pull the
ball back to you, you know with your shooting hand, and you can challenge
that shot and he makes those, you probably would live with those. Okay but
the ones in which it’s a pass-out, it’s a rhythm shot, those are the ones
that you’re probably not, you know, you wanna take those out as much as you
can.
是啊我认为当你对上他们的时候，你必须让你的球员们了解，这是一支场均30颗三分，并
且在攻守转换间极具杀伤力的队伍。不仅攻防转换的防守变得非常重要，你也必须思考如
何降低投三分的总数。你不希望他们一场能投35或40颗三分，而且命中率还很高。所以我
认为首要目标是降低三分球的投射次数，一旦次数降低后，再来想如何让他们投不进。接
着要想哪些机会是必须守住的，我觉得应该是两分球(应该是指上篮和灌篮)，并且不能让
他们在三分线角落接了就投。最重要的是要能对防守上的取舍做出决定。接下来你也可以
想想，如果我们尝试对持球者做压迫，迫使他把球传出来，对方球员的站位会是如何。顺
著这样的思维，或许我们可以只在特定的区域里压迫。但前提是你的球员必须有这样的防
守纪律，并且能理解你的策略。譬如说，你把对方守得很紧，迫使他只能往一个方向移动
，但当他把球带回来准备投篮，而你能用惯用手去阻碍他，但他还是投进的话，那么虽然
可惜但这仍然是一个成功的防守。但如果是用简单的传接，或是顺风球，的方式来得分，
那么这些机会都要被消灭掉。
小结：
其实Thibs对于如何防守的回答满中规中矩的，当然这问题对他来说假设性本来就很高。
但是值得一题的是他还是倾向对持球者进行压迫，然后希望能把球逼到防守愿意放开的
地方。
而减少三分球出手次数和攻防转换间的出手次数也是首要目标。
当然说得比做得容易，强如马刺也有受挫的时候。