[闲聊] 数据无法说明白的现象

楼主: Zamned (Как дела?)   2015-08-25 22:12:28
棒球是数据化非常彻底的运动
人们总是说足球、篮球的化学效应很强
相比之下,在棒球场上除了防守外
跟队友的互动好像就是差那么一点
以至于人们长期忽略化学效应在棒球上的力量
以下这篇文章谈到因为人心难测
使得数据一直以来无法量化休息室化学效应
也让数据玩家会选择忽略化学效应对球队的影响
但是有些人可不这么认为,这篇文章请来超多球员现身说法告诉大家神奇的化学效应
Jake Peavy、John Lackey、David Price、C.C. Sabathia都说出心里的话
Sabathia:如果休息室的化学效应是好的,它能带领球队赢球。这是实话,你无法否认的
看看老人队,他们能赢球而且球员互相敬重彼此,他们有Jake Peavy这种带气
氛的球员,你还得看看Tim Hudson带给球队的影响,化学效应是真的存在!
Jake Peavy:数据统计与赢球的关联我不是很了解。但是我确定球员间形影不离、在乎
彼此、一起享受比赛能够替比赛带来好结果。我见识过,也曾经体验过。
看看David Ross带给小熊什么?去年这个老捕手打的很糟,不过他还是拿
到两年保障约,这是为什么呢?
David Price:不知道缺乏化学效应能带给球队什么影响的人别在这个圈子混啦。这让我愤怒。他们根本
不知道这有多重要。去问问皇家、红鸟、老人吧!老人并没有很棒的天
分,但是他们团结一心。红鸟也是如此,他们有天分,但是不足以让他
们赢得这么多场次。红鸟非常不可思议,他们伤了这么多大将,但是他
们仍然持续赢球。
后面还有谈到蓝鸟的GM看大奶婶与David Price给休息室带来的文化,也同时提到舍宝贝
碰取LaTroy Hawkins也是考辆这些层面。
剩下的部分自己看吧
In a sport where the desire to quantify every movement only grows with each
season, it is a sabermetric aficionado’s worst nightmare.
You can’t measure it. You can’t define it. You can’t put a number on it.
We’re talking about clubhouse chemistry, and the culture that can raise a
major league team to extraordinary heights without having the biggest payroll
or most talent.
“It’s really undervalued,’’ St. Louis Cardinals veteran starter John
Lackey told USA TODAY Sports, “especially in today’s world with all of the
numbers guys.”
We can put all kinds of numbers on players’ talent, from RBI to WAR, to ERA
to FIP, but when it comes to the heart and soul of a clubhouse, there remains
no measuring stick.
“The numbers guys can’t quantify that one,’’ Lackey said, “so they don’
t want to believe in it.’’
You want to know what chemistry and culture is about, peek inside the San
Francisco Giants’ clubhouse. They’ve won three of the last five World
Series. Maybe they’ve had the best manager in Bruce Bochy, and GM too in
Brian Sabean, but never have they had the best talent.
“We’re in a game today where everybody wants to think they can formulate,
or come up with some kind of number,’’ says Giants starter Jake Peavy, who
like Lackey, has won World Series titles with two organizations. “You turn
on some of these baseball shows, and nobody wants to talk about the San
Francisco Giants, because numbers can’t explain how we won last year.
“They don’t want to talk about clubhouse chemistry.
“Come on, how to do you put a number on a guy like (Chicago Cubs backup
catcher David Ross) and what he brings to the clubhouse? This guy hit (.184)
last year, and he got multiple two-years deals on the table. Why is that?’’
Indeed, you step into the Cubs’ clubhouse these days, and no one is talking
about Ross’ .186 batting average and seven RBI. They’re too busy raving
about his powerful influence on a club featuring four rookies in the everyday
lineup.
“He means so much to every single person in here,’’ Cubs first baseman
Anthony Rizzo said.
Go ahead, try to put a number on that.
The St. Louis Cardinals and Kansas City Royals have the two finest records in
baseball. If you go by the numbers, the Royals were supposed to win just 72
games this year, according to Baseball Prospectus’ projection system,
PECOTA. The Cardinals, who have had more injuries to key players than any
team, shouldn’t be leading their division, let alone be on pace to eclipse
100 victories, if you go strictly by sheer talent.
“People that don’t understand what team chemistry means don’t work in
baseball,’’ Toronto Blue Jays ace David Price said. “It makes me mad,
because obviously they don’t know how important it is. Ask the Giants. Ask
the Royals. Ask the Cardinals.
“You look at the Giants, and they’re not more talented than everyone else
every year, but they’re so close, and together. The Cardinals are the same
way. They definitely have talent, but they’re no more talented than a lot of
the teams they’re beating every day.
“The Cardinals are unbelievable. They lose their ace (Adam Wainwright). They
lose their No. 3 and No. 4 hitters in (Matt) Adams and (Matt Holliday). And
they’re still winning. They’re just unreal.
“It’s the same thing as the Royals. Yeah, they have talent, but you can
tell how close they are by watching them. I pay attention to all of that.’’
The Blue Jays placed more emphasis on a player’s character than any time in
GM Alex Anthopoulos’ tenure. He shipped out the guy who didn’t fit in. He
chose character over talent. There’s a reason why 42-year-old LaTroy Hawkins
is now in the Blue Jays’ bullpen instead of Jonathan Papelbon.
“We really, really, emphasized that,’’ Anthopoulos said, “more than we
ever have. It’s the first time we ever put that level of emphasis on it. The
focus of the offseason was that we were going to change the mix a little bit.
It’s not diving on anybody else, but it wasn’t working.
“Don’t get me wrong, it’s still talent and production first, but the other
component is almost as important. Just because you have all good people doesn
’t mean you’re always going to win. There are plenty of guys who have a
6-plus ERA who are tremendous clubhouse guys, but they’re sitting at
Triple-A.
“Every team goes through ups and downs, and I think with a better clubhouse
and with better character, that allows you to handle the downs a lot. That’s
the separator. So rather than the floor caving in on you, you stay afloat.
“We’ll find out if it works.’’
Certainly, adding a guy like Price at the trade deadline, and having MVP
favorite Josh Donaldson the entire season, may have something to do with the
Blue Jays’ success, too. Yet, manager John Gibbons can’t stop raving about
Donaldson’s leadership skills, and Price is revered throughout the game.
For whatever reason, the Blue Jays are 18-4 since consummating the Price deal.
“We were looking for a special type of player, even if it meant passing on
some talent,’’ Anthopoulos said, “making sure every player we acquired fit.
“I think it’s important David Price fit into in the clubhouse, but let’s
don’t forget he’s got a (2.40) ERA, too.’’
Sure, you’ve got to have talent to win, but talent alone doesn’t guarantee
a thing. If the standings were based strictly on talent, you think the
Washington Nationals would be trailing the New York Mets by five games? You
think the Los Angeles Dodgers, and their $307 million payroll, would be only
up 1 ½ games on the Giants? You think the Texas Rangers would be winning the
second wild-card spot, or that the Minnesota Twins - projected to lose 92
games - would be just 1 1/2 games out of the wild-card race?
“If you have good clubhouse chemistry, you going to win,’’ New York
Yankees veteran starter CC Sabathia said. “It’s not something you can fake.
It’s real.
“You look at the Giants. Those guys love each other, and they win. They get
a guy like Peavy. You see what (Tim) Hudson has meant for them. It’s the
real thing.’’
Sure, numbers are fine for fantasy leagues, but if you want to truly define a
player’s value, or recognize the importance significance of clubhouse
culture, it’s time to wake up and embrace character, too.
“I think we’re losing part of our game because so many of these people in
charge don’t have the scouting background or playing background,’’ Peavy
said. “All they have is a great education and they’re really good at math.
Some of these front offices crunch all of these numbers, and think they’ve
got it all figured out.
“I don’t know the formula for winning, but I do know what it means when
teams are inseparable, enjoy their time together, care for each other, and
play for the higher cause. I’ve seen it. I’ve been part of it.
“You can have all of the education you want, and break down every number you
want, but unless you get to know what’s inside a player, you really don’t
know the player.’’
The Royals certainly noticed the tepid external expectations. Public
relations director Mike Swanson, in his recent pre-game notes, reminded
everyone of Baseball Prospectus’ projected 72-90 record. The Royals have
already won a league-leading 75 games, and could clinch their first division
title in 30 years by Labor Day.
“Fortunately, games are won on a field and not on paper,’’ Swanson wrote
in the Royals’ notes distributed to the media, “thus a computer ‘time out’
might be appropriate for some.”
“We had our Moneyball movie, and they didn’t even win,’’ Peavy said of
the Oakland Athletics. “How about let’s make a movie about the good ol’
fashioned baseball people, and how they judge team chemistry, and put
together guys that fit in.
“How about a movie about a team that actually wins in the end?’’
作者: mrkey (距離太遠 思念太近)   2015-08-25 22:13:00
Hunter Pence 是这方面的代表
作者: dufflin (怨憎會 愛別離 求不得)   2015-08-25 22:15:00
舍宝贝碰取LaTroy Hawkins 欸~
作者: maxspeed150 (听说茉夏分手了)   2015-08-25 22:19:00
chemistry 宁可信其有不可信其无不过 只有强队才会有好的chemistry
作者: mess0706 (我不是刘正 我是刘正伦)   2015-08-25 22:22:00
好想知道现在LAD休息室气氛怎样?谁该出来带头?A-Gon 好像不太有这方面的气质然后球队里面一堆奇奇怪怪的咖
作者: mrkey (距離太遠 思念太近)   2015-08-25 22:30:00
Mattingly 也不像是个 vocal guy
作者: aquacomfort (那个谁)   2015-08-25 22:40:00
本来就是这样 打过棒垒球就知道了 比赛节奏很慢 大多数时间是待在场边发呆打屁 很容易想些有的没的 在场边的氛围不能愉悦而无负担的话走上场会严重影响表现
作者: Maverick77   2015-08-25 22:43:00
难怪国民下半季,战绩直直落。费城反而战绩扶摇直上~~
作者: b99202071 (b99202071)   2015-08-25 22:50:00
Z魔神啊 再问一次谁大便没洗手(?)
作者: niravaabhas (挨滴货)   2015-08-25 23:00:00
心理层面真的是重点 这部份数据无法计算
作者: WasHenryTsen (WasHenry0101)   2015-08-25 23:05:00
泪推洋基支柱沙胖
作者: ocean11 (深海)   2015-08-25 23:05:00
真的
作者: WasHenryTsen (WasHenry0101)   2015-08-25 23:06:00
听说他会跟队友去打篮球!
作者: unicorn45 (小葛)   2015-08-25 23:07:00
有在打球的都知道休息室的气氛绝对有差
作者: lovebulls (love46&51)   2015-08-25 23:07:00
Of course yes !! 刚开始看棒球的时候不知道化学效应是什么 懂一点数据的时候觉得化学效应被夸大了 现在则是完全不怀疑化学效应的重要只要是跟人有关的 这个东西永远都重要
作者: fountainNess (秋本平吉千人将)   2015-08-25 23:11:00
Zamned大,小熊的休息室领袖是谁阿,Rizzo吗?
作者: Lucroy (卢克罗伊)   2015-08-25 23:19:00
可能是西瓜XD
作者: TSbb (贷款三十年债开始)   2015-08-25 23:19:00
只推四楼那行
作者: fountainNess (秋本平吉千人将)   2015-08-25 23:22:00
蛇蛇现在chemistry不错,但蛇蛇不是强队~
作者: charlie01   2015-08-25 23:23:00
与其说强队 应该说赢球的队才有好的chemistry这些事其实大家都知道也不会否认吧 也没有那么神祕只要有跟一些比赛加上看一些beat writer的侧记该队气氛如何或领袖是谁对球迷来说其实也都有底
作者: lovebulls (love46&51)   2015-08-25 23:28:00
要赢球 一是实力 二是决心 至于chemistry之于强队这就是鸡生蛋 蛋生鸡的问题了
作者: poweryeh (小葉)   2015-08-25 23:37:00
可以参考NBA的马刺 季后赛还全队去看复仇者联盟 XD
作者: Uaena (IU)   2015-08-25 23:52:00
最近天使打的很糟Houston street也有对大家喊话老将价值
作者: DesertEagleX (banbanban)   2015-08-25 23:55:00
作者: EEERRIICC (大尾魯蛇)   2015-08-25 23:55:00
海盗休息区也是神祕chemistry
作者: Uaena (IU)   2015-08-25 23:55:00
还有我倒不觉得赢球的队才会有好的chemistry,但持续在赢球的队伍多半都会有不错的chemistry
作者: eatthis   2015-08-25 23:56:00
有数据派开始在弄这一块 有点像行为经济学的研究
作者: EEERRIICC (大尾魯蛇)   2015-08-25 23:58:00
输球有输球的chemistry....
作者: Beisbol (Béisbol)   2015-08-26 00:08:00
怎么没有潮哥?swag已经被遗忘了吗?
作者: KEDEN (把我换成你)   2015-08-26 00:10:00
运动球队中 多半都有类似更衣室领袖这种角色的人 而且大多数都不是成绩很优秀的球员这种东西很好玩 个人觉得这也是吸引球迷很大的一种因素
作者: aquacomfort (那个谁)   2015-08-26 00:18:00
篮球节奏快 在场边可以做的该做的相较棒球有限太多了
作者: rex9999 (雷哥司)   2015-08-26 00:22:00
Wang带给休息室的化学效应是? 合约已实质反应
作者: gfn423   2015-08-26 00:27:00
嗯~看到勇士换Uribe到Mets后的两队战绩,这套说法更有说服力了
作者: w6607282 (Hsi)   2015-08-26 00:31:00
老人是哪队啊?
作者: shanaandlai (saisai)   2015-08-26 00:31:00
看no的自传,其中不止一次提到队伍夺冠时候的气氛,的确让人无法完全否定气势氛围这种情况,(mo
作者: howard21201 (阿土)   2015-08-26 00:37:00
Price想引战吗?? 巨人没天分??
作者: dp44 (lol)   2015-08-26 01:20:00
常赢球 战绩好 气氛自然就会好
作者: aa10252233 (胁猫贱客)   2015-08-26 01:37:00
宝贝碰uccu 根本烫手山芋啊
作者: padmae (super Muggle)   2015-08-26 01:49:00
老人内野全农场~Ace也是自家栽培 主力间根本青梅竹马 XD
作者: blacklittle (傻黑)   2015-08-26 01:50:00
躲人少了有理伯后 也是...
作者: kenny7998 (UgoKuo)   2015-08-26 02:23:00
休息室气氛真的差很多啊... XD
作者: kenwufederer (Nash)   2015-08-26 03:06:00
实力差距不大下 向心力其实重要
作者: illidan23 (^^迪^^)   2015-08-26 07:44:00
内野全农场 这对默契和信心帮助真的很大
作者: JoeMauer7 (猫儿)   2015-08-26 08:24:00
我城老猎人也是~
作者: Asucks (我的老婆是超人)   2015-08-26 08:47:00
所以Puig无法成为真正的巨星...道奇实力也与战绩有差异
作者: th11yh23 (脑沙拉手术)   2015-08-26 08:47:00
化学效应这种东西不就后见之明 胜率低的球队气氛是能好到哪里去? 这搬到哪种运动都一样吧
作者: Lucroy (卢克罗伊)   2015-08-26 08:50:00
巨人就是老人
作者: shawshien (Let's go, Cubbies!)   2015-08-26 09:29:00
Hammel 说 Ross 是team dad
作者: edwardcwd   2015-08-26 09:44:00
说不定未来心理素质也会被数据化
作者: TSbb (贷款三十年债开始)   2015-08-26 10:12:00
继投手数据好球质就重后,MLB启发台湾又一力作 XD
作者: bonjovi0930 (Ben)   2015-08-26 10:39:00
笑脸人休息室气氛应该不错,但战绩还是要看球员能力
作者: kyo28 (白蚂亡子)   2015-08-26 13:25:00
明显 考辆<===量
作者: stevexu (是是非非)   2015-08-26 16:16:00
其实也是有反证Kent自己受访时说过他跟Bonds在巨人时关系一直不好,休息室气氛很糟,不过那时巨人还是很有竞争力
作者: peterhuo (人生位阶乐胜真爽)   2015-08-26 17:40:00
问题是你本来数据就好啊,打起来自然感到有化学效应人有百百种,有人欢乐打球能打好,有人非要痛苦才能绽放

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