原文连结:

Positional Versatility and the Zobrist Fallacy
Sometimes we’re taught to value the wrong things. Usually this happens
because, at some point prior, our elders didn’t know any better. An idea
gets ingrained into our culture and passed down from generation to generation
without ever really being questioned. Certain contrarians and rabble rousers
try to shake things up, but they’re almost always shouted down.
There is this thing—some fact or idea—that we know to be true, and it leads
to all sorts of other conclusions about related matters. This is why RBI and
wins remain so popular in baseball. There was a time when they were the best
stats we had, and changing your values when new information comes around is a
challenge for many people. We sometimes call this inertial reasoning.
But this isn’t about RBI or wins. I’ll spare you that diatribe. This is
about something else entirely. It’s about the way our conception of what a
player ought to be leads us to look down upon one of the most unique and
impressive players in baseball.
This is a story about Ben Zobrist and what it means to be a great player.
我们常被一些错误观念误导，因为许多旧的观念一代一代传下来并没有受到什么质疑。
例如胜投和RBI依然在棒球界盛行是因为在过去那是最好的评估工具，而人们不愿意轻易
改变价值观。本文将借由Ben Zobrist的例子来告诉你为何他是很好的选手。
The well-educated but unobsessed baseball fan likely knows two things about
Zobrist. First, he plays a lot of different positions for the Rays. Second,
people like me won’t shut up about how Zobrist is so underrated.
That’s the book on Zobrist. He’s a super-utility guy whom a small army of
baseball nerds seem to think is the second coming of Stan Musial. You might
even been aware of the fact that Wins Above Replacement (WAR) seems to adore
Zobrist. Lots of WAR skeptics like to point to that and use it as an example
of WAR’s imperfections, its flaws.
WAR doesn’t work because it says Ben Zobrist is about as good as Miguel
Cabrera and Robinson Cano. That’s the message. This is something that just
cannot be so. WAR is new. It requires a mix of math and subjectivity, and you
can’t calculate it with two swipes on a keyboard. So when it tells you
something you don’t believe, you dismiss it. Mock it.Forget it.
This formula says Ben Zobrist is one of the five best players in baseball.
What a joke.
大部分球迷对于Ben Zobrist的印象大概就两个。1.他在光芒守过许多位置 2.许多人一
直强调他被低估了。 这也是Ben Zobrist有趣的地方，他是个多守位野手；而从WAR的
角度看他简直是强爆惹，他的WAR值和Miguel Cabrera差不多，当然许多人认为这就是
WAR的缺陷所在，Ben Zobrist怎么可能和Miguel Cabrera一样强?!
WAR告诉我们Ben Zobrist是最好的五名棒球选手之一? 真是笑话!!
Let’s start at the end, though. WAR loves Zobrist. From 2009 to 2012,
Zobrist ranked second to Cabrera with 24.3 WAR to Cabrera’s 24.9. From 2009
to 2013, Zobrist trailed only Cabrera and teammate Evan Longoria. He became a
full-time player in 2009 and since then, WAR says he’s been the second-most
valuable position player in the entire sport.
Zobrist从2009~2012的WAR是24.3仅次于Cabrera的24.9。至2013年为止WAR说他是
全美第二有价值的棒球员。
Zobrist has a .270 batting average during that time and fewer than 100 home
runs. He’s nowhere near Cabrera’s equal at the plate, but his baserunning
and defense are superior. That’s typically the case with WAR. Most basic
analysis is about hitting and gives lip service to the rest of the game. We
went over this again and against both times we fought over Mike Trout and
Cabrera.
Zobrist2009~2012的打击率.270 全垒打少于100，很明显和Cabrera没得比。他只有跑垒
和守备优于Cabrera，然而这就是WAR试图说明的棒球员除了攻击以外其他方面的贡献。
But it’s more than that for Zobrist, because he doesn’t have a loud
defensive game. He’s not making amazing plays in center or making throws
like Andrelton Simmons. Zobrist plays a bunch of positions and plays them
well. No one really argues that he’s a poor defender, but he’s not
considered outstanding, either.
It’s not so much that defense outweighs hitting in this example. It’s that
there’s a perception that a guy who plays all over the diamond cannot
possibly be good enough to be mentioned in the same breath as the game’s
premier slugger.
Even the skeptic can watch Ozzie Smith play defense and realize that it’s
possible for him to make up for his weaker bat. But the skeptic can’t see a
guy who doesn’t even have a permanent position as being capable of providing
that type of value.
Don’t blame the skeptic here. He’s a product of his culture and of the
language he was taught.
他的守备只能算不错，他的例子也不是说明守备比攻击更重要，Zobrist的亮点在于
他几乎场上每个位置能守。
One certainly could make the case that Zobrist is underrated simply because he
’s a well-rounded player without one defining tool. That’s probably true to
some extent, but I’d contend that Zobrist is primarily underrated relative
to other such players because of his most impressive skill.
Ben Zobrist can play average or better defense at every position—with the
possible exception of catcher—and Joe Maddon makes the most of that
wonderful skill. During his career, Zobrist has played more than 4,000
innings at second base, more than 1,700 frames at shortstop, over 2,000
innings in right field, and about 500 innings apiece among left field, center
field, first base, and third base.
Zobrist isn’t underrated because he’s a good-at-everything,
great-at-nothing player. Zobrist is underrated because pretty much every
player in baseball who is asked to play four or five positions during the
course of a season qualifies as a backup.
Just look at this list of players who played 50 or more innings at three
different positions in 2013:
Ben Zobrist二垒守超过4000局、游击超过1700局、右外野超过2000局、左中外野一垒三垒
加起来超过500局。Ben Zobrist被低估不是因为他是全能守位的野手，而是在我们的观念
之中，流浪在各个守位的野手不就是个替补吗。
以下是2013年在超过三个守位守超过50局的野手:
Player WAR Played LF/CF/RF Only
Ben Zobrist 5.4
Chris Denorfia 3.9 X
Bryce Harper 3.8 X
Andre Ethier 2.9 X
Allen Craig 2.5
Mark Trumbo 2.5
Martin Prado 2.4
Josh Hamilton 2.0 X
Brandon Moss 1.9
Daniel Nava 1.8
Nick Punto 1.8
Curtis Granderson 1.4 X
Kelly Johnson 1.2
Rajai Davis 1.2 X
Michael Saunders 1.2 X
Ichiro Suzuki 1.1 X
Shane Robinson 0.9 X
Jordan Schafer 0.9 X
Charlie Blackmon 0.8 X
Eric Young 0.7 X
Ed Lucas 0.7
Jeff Bianchi 0.7
Emilio Bonifacio 0.6
Dustin Ackley 0.6
Joaquin Arias 0.6
Willie Bloomquist 0.5
Chris Young 0.5 X
Justin Turner 0.5
Jeff Baker 0.4
Clete Thomas 0.4 X
Ramiro Pena 0.4
Kyle Blanks 0.3
Mike Aviles 0.3
Ramon Santiago 0.2
Freddy Galvis 0.1
Wilkin Ramirez 0.1 X
Darin Ruf 0.1
Mark DeRosa 0.1
Don Kelly 0.0
Logan Forsythe 0.0
Alex Presley -0.1 X
Trevor Crowe -0.1 X
Logan Schafer -0.1 X
Collin Cowgill -0.2 X
Sam Fuld -0.3 X
Daniel Descalso -0.3
Chris Coghlan -0.5 X
Roger Bernadina -0.6 X
Alexi Amarista -0.8
Skip Schumaker -1.0
Jerry Hairston -1.3
Michael Morse -1.5
Jeff Keppinger -1.5
Maicer Izturis -2.2
It’s Zobrist and mostly a bunch of guys you might find on the waiver wire.
There are a few other good players in there, but almost every player who is
asked to move around the diamond is something less than a solid regular, and
this list counts left field and right field as different positions.
Of the 54 players on this list, 22 of them only played the three different
outfield spots, and you have to get down to Martin Prado at 2.4 WAR before
you find a player whom you might consider a “utility” guy. The average WAR
of the group, including Zobrist, is 0.7.
The fact that Zobrist moves around must mean he isn’t good enough to hold
down one position, right?
和Zobrist排在一起的是一票让渡名单水准的野手，这份名单已经将左外和右外视为不同
守位，54人中有22人只是在三个外野守位轮流守。而我们从Zobrist一路往下看到Martin
Prado才让我们感觉到这是个工具人。这群人的WAR平均是0.7，而Zobrist是5.4。
This belief is what I call the “Zobrist Fallacy.” It’s perfectly
understandable, as an automatic response, to see a player rotating around the
field during the course of the season and assume he’s the team’s 10th man.
He’s the best substitute, so he plays whatever position is open due to
injuries or days off. This is how players like Don Kelly make their living.
Our conception of a utility player is someone who is good enough defensively
to handle multiple positions but not good enough offensively to start at any
of them. They’re useful because you can usually avoid carrying extra bench
players for emergencies and can replace them with guys who are valuable pinch
hitters or platoon bats.
我们对工具人的印象就是守备足够胜任多重守位，但攻击不足站稳先发。
Plenty of major leaguers fit this description. They’re guys you like having
around, and their role calls on them to play a variety of positions over the
course of a season. They’re baseball duct tape. But we get lost with players
like Zobrist because he is capable of that kind of versatility while also
featuring a well-above-average bat. He breaks the mold a little.
我们存有这种观念就会忽略Zobrist这种超级工具人。
In baseball, defensive flexibility is something you learn when your bat won’
t keep you in the lineup. It’s a matter of survival for many players rather
than true cause and effect. Guys who can play multiple positions aren’t
inherently bad, but most of them learn to play multiple positions because it’
s the only way they can be good enough.
Which bring us to Zobrist. Zobrist’s bat is good enough to start anywhere.
His 126 wRC+ since 2009 would be well above average anywhere on the diamond.
The baseball instruction manual tells us to put players at the best defensive
position they can handle if their bats are good enough to be in the lineup at
all. If Miguel Cabrera could play shortstop well, he’d be a shortstop.
在攻击优先的棒球观念中，工具人不是不够好，这是他们唯一能生存的办法。但Zobrist
证明他不管守哪个位子火力都足以担任先发。自2009年起他的wRC+是126。
From a value perspective, this makes sense in the abstract. This isn’t one
of those silly baseball traditions that won’t die. You want a player to
provide as much value as possible and he will do so by playing his innings at
the most difficult possible defensive position. Anyone who doesn’t do that
isn’t maximizing his value.
The immediate realization, however, is that teams have to fill out an entire
lineup, so a team with Troy Tulowitzki and Andrelton Simmons couldn’t have
two players at short. One would move to third or second or center field. You
wouldn’t be maximizing Tulowitzki’s value if you put him at third, but he
could handle third just fine, and it would help the team overall.
So people don’t knock Zobrist simply because he doesn’t play shortstop when
the Rays have a better defensive shortstop on the roster. They knock him
because it appears as if the team has a better shortstop, second baseman, and
right fielder on the roster, and Zobrist is just finding his way into the
lineup by plugging whichever hole is open that day. And that’s simply not
true.
由于棒球守备位置的关系，各守位火力最大化一直都是教练最烦恼的问题，Zobrist这种
不管守哪火力都可以最大化的球员是稀有且珍贵的。
Zobrist is one of the Rays’ stars. Maddon builds the lineup around him.
Zobrist is a utility player because he’s special, not because he needs to do
it to survive. If you take the time to really think about it, you know that
Zobrist isn’t the Rays 10th-best player. But the fact that you associate his
most recognizable skill with guys who can barely stay above replacement level
leads you to psychologically undervalue him when comparing him to the game’s
best players.
Only a couple of players have been more productive major league players
during the last six seasons, but if you tell people Zobrist is a star and WAR
thinks he’s great, there’s pushback.
And that pushback is all in our heads. If you think about it dispassionately,
you know that a player with a 126 wRC+ who plays good defense and gets 600 or
more plate appearances is crazy valuable whether he plays right field or
shortstop. There’s a difference between those two, maybe around a win, but
both are All-Star type players or better. But when we see it with our own
eyes, it’s tough to break the well-ingrained conditioning. Great players don
’t move around the diamond. They just don’t.
Zobrist对光芒队的重要性不言可喻 Maddon可以用他随意安排打线。
WAR说Zobrist是明星球员但我们不相信，因为明星球员不可能到处换守位。
There’s a very human origin and baseball origin to this way of thinking.
From a simple perspective, it’s hard to switch between multiple positions
and play them well. We’re pretty confident as analysts that a good shortstop
could become a good outfielder, but asking a young player to learn both at
the major league level and switch between the two at a moment’s notice is
hard. The outfield isn’t harder than shortstop, but it’s absolutely a
challenge no matter how talented the player may be. It takes time to master a
position.
It makes sense that you wouldn’t want to bring a talented hitter up and
bounce him around the diamond. It would take his energy away from learning to
hit a big-league slider, and it might make him worse at both positions. In
other words, the actual development of versatility is challenging. That’s
problem one.
我们都相信一个好的游击手也能成为好的外野手，但若要一个年轻选手学习两个以上
大联盟等级的守备位置是很困难的。没人会要求潜力股以学习多重守位为目标。这可能
会影响他在打击方面的发展。
Problem two is a product of problem one. In baseball, we develop and scout
talent without much concern for need at the major league level. If you have
to pick a position for a player, you pick it when he’s first coming up, and
you move him off the position when he proves he can’t handle it or the team
runs into a road block in the big leagues. Since it’s difficult to play
multiple positions, you find positions for your top prospects to succeed, and
you develop them there.
Essentially, you scout players based on the most difficult position they can
handle. If you’re watching a 20-year-old kid at Double-A with the potential
to hit 30 home runs with some decent on-base skill, you care about getting
him to the big leagues. If he can play third, he’ll play third. If he can’t
play third, he’ll learn left. His bat is getting him to the show, and his
glove is just keeping him from slowing that down.
On the other side, if you’re watching a superlative defender, you’re not
going to move him off the position and try others, because his presence at
that position is why you want hiem at all. Simmons didn’t get to Atlanta
because he was setting the world on fire at the plate. He got there because
of the runs he can save on defense.
You only shift to honing the utility craft when either of those avenues fail.
If you aren’t good enough to hit in the big leagues, you might be good
enough to fill a bench role, but that requires that you can cover a few
positions. Or if your bat is okay, but your defense isn’t good enough for
you to start at a premium defensive position, you might find yourself unable
to break in as a starter at an offense-first position.
At the development stage, you become a utility player when becoming a starter
fails. In talking with a few people who cover the player development world,
that’s the message that comes through. Utility players, or guys who play all
over the diamond, do so because they didn’t project as someone who could
play every day at the MLB level.
球探在看新秀时，也是先看棒子。球员本来守哪就守哪，如果棒子可以上大联盟；本来
是个三垒手那就守三垒，三垒不行就左外。总是以棒子优先。能守什么位置不是优先考量
靠守备上大联盟的人代表他们在棒子竞争中输了。
When I asked our Marc Hulet what he means when he uses the term “utility
player” in a scouting report, he said that it means the player’s “
offensive skills project as replacement level or worse, but that they’re
athletic enough to handle multiple positions.”
Another FanGraphs and Hardball Times contributor, Nathaniel Stoltz, told me
that utility players “have interesting skills, and they don’t have a fatal
flaw that would leave them totally helpless in the bigs, but they don’t fall
neatly into any position on the field in terms of their skill set. One
prerequisite for a utility tag, of course, is the player’s ability (or
projected ability) to man several positions. In most instances, that includes
at least one up-the-middle spot (seems like [four-corner] types are pretty
rare nowadays).”
Stoltz went on to say that a utility guy is “either deficient enough on one
side of the ball to give you pause running him out there every day, or he’s
just fairly bland all-around and, therefore, doesn’t seem like the sort of
guy worth going out of your way to write into the lineup card regularly.”
Mark Anderson, who writes for Baseball Prospectus and TigsTown, puts it like
this: “Utility players have an MLB tool that holds them at the level, or the
collection of their tools warrants more than an org player projection…in
Tigers terms, think Ramon Santiago’s peak (glove as the carrying tool) or
Shane Halter (never embarrassed himself in any capacity at his peak),
respectively.”
Built into all of these characterizations is the idea that utility players
are good enough to be useful members of a 25-man roster but not good enough
that you would want them to start for your team. This won’t come as a shock
to anyone, but seeing their descriptions is important. When you call someone
a utility player, or project they have a utility future, you’re
acknowledging a lack of potential.
There are many players in professional baseball who fit this description. They
’re common, and we’re very aware of their existence. Just go back up and
look at that list. We have a good grasp on what it means to be a utility
player. Given that there are countless examples, we end up developing a very
fixed relationship between players who play multiple positions and players
who aren’t great by major league standards. It’s almost a perfect
relationship, truth be told.
If you take the time to really sit down and think, you know this isn’t a
guarantee. But as your subtle opinions develop and the lack of
counterexamples emerge, your brain accepts this conventional wisdom.
这里是一些人对工具人的看法 大概就是"攻击能力在让渡球员水准，但运动能力可以负担
多守位" "没有致命缺点让他们在面对大联盟对手时显得无助，但能力不足以先发"
大概就是工具人能力足够摆在25人名单内，但不用抱太多期望。一般人对工具人的联想
就是"潜力不足"。
Which brings us back to Zobrist. Over the last six years, he ranks second in
WAR, and even if you use WAR as a general guide, he’s easily been one of the
ten best position players in the game during that time. He has a well
above-average bat. He runs the bases very well. He’s an extremely valuable
defender. Zobrist isn’t just a good player who stands above other players
who play multiple positions; he stands above just about everyone.
Zobrist is versatile. He’s not a utility player by the common meaning of the
word. He has everything you need to be a major league starter at any position
and the added ability to handle many positions at a moment’s notice.
Sixty qualified players have posted a 120 wRC+ or better since 2009. Zobrist
ranks seventh in BsR (base running runs) among them and first in DEF
(fielding and positional runs). Think Chase Utley and Evan Longoria as
comparables.
Zobrist绝对不是潜力不足，他打击很行，跑垒很行，守备很行，守哪都很行，他具有
所有成为大联盟先发球员的条件，从打击、跑垒、守备方面拿他和Evan Longoria、
Chase Utley比较的话...
BEN ZOBRIST COMPARABLES
Name PA wRC+ Bsr Off Def WAR
Ben Zobrist 3869 126 16.3 133.7 70.1 34.7
Evan Longoria 3533 131 6.8 135.0 67.4 33.4
Chase Utley 3133 123 26.5 113.0 57.1 27.9
Utley and Longoria are underrated in their own right for providing a lot of
value in aspects of the game other than at the plate, but imagine taking one
of those players and being able to use him at every position.
Which leads us to one final question: Why is versatility so valuable? If we
put Zobrist at shortstop or second base and let him play, he’d still be
plenty valuable. Baseball dorks would still consider him one of the best
dozen players over the last few seasons. Right? Yes, but it’s more than that.
Zobrist’s versatility makes the Rays better because he gives them the option
to run any number of rotating platoons across multiple positions. He’s a
switch hitter who can play basically every position. The Rays can gather
their best nine hitters for any given matchup, and the fact that they have
Zobrist and his versatility allows them to be less concerned about needing
the other eight to cover a specific set of positions.
It’s also a huge benefit when dealing with injuries. The Rays almost always
can replace an injured player with their next-best player because Zobrist can
shift positions to accommodate. He’s the best insurance policy money can buy.
从比较表可以看出Zobrist的价值。他也增加光芒调度的灵活性。
I’ve always had a fascination with versatility in baseball. When you’re in
little league, you’re either the kid who wants to play shortstop or you’re
the kid who tells the coach you’ll play anywhere. I was the latter. There
aren’t really any other players like Zobrist right now, or at least any
players who have done what he does for an extended period of time.
Chone Figgins comes to mind, but he had only two high-quality offensive
seasons. In 2013, Prado is about the closest thing we have, and he’s an
average major league rather than a down-ballot MVP.
Our conception of utility players leads us to relay a utility tag onto
players who play all over the diamond. As a result, we think less of those
guys who play multiple positions than we probably should, even if they’re
much better than a 25th man. Most of the time, that doesn’t have serious
consequences. In Zobrist’s case, though, it leads us to miss a star and
question a method of player evaluation (WAR), because it doesn’t feel like
Zobrist should be so well regarded.
Versatility should be celebrated. It’s a valuable skill we don’t properly
appreciate because the number of players who use versatility to move from
good to great is tiny compared to the number of players who use it to move
from career minor leaguer to bench player.
Looking down on versatile players is like looking down on buffets just
because buffets typically don’t offer high-quality food. But buffets could
offer high quality good. Some rare ones do. That’s Ben Zobrist. He has all
of the skills you need to succeed at any major league position and the
ability to play almost any of them.
Zobrist isn’t the reason WAR is flawed; he’s the reason it’s important. If
not for the existence WAR, even more people would undervalue one of the best
players of the last several years. Zobrist would be a great player if he were
anchored to second base, but the fact that he’s not makes him even more
valuable to the Rays despite the fact that though our brains have been
programmed to think otherwise.
这就凸显了多功能性的重要性了，我们过去认为多功能性就是什么都会一点，什么都不精
这明显地低估了Zobrist。我们觉得buffets就是什么都有，但都不怎么样。事实上也有
高级的buffets；什么都有，什么都好。Zobrist的存在不是证明WAR有缺陷；相反的，
他证明为何WAR很重要，如果没有WAR我们很可能低估了一个过去几年最好的棒球选手。

为什么这篇感觉有点拿对Zobrist的数字来说@@~08年Zobrist爆发 war 8.5 可是其他年份他并没有办法表现的那么好...@@

这篇文的数据都没有08的啊，这样算很不错了吧

赞 好感动

阿 是我打错 是09他爆发 war 8.5

就算09年特别高 其他几年都还是在5非常高的数字

算新观念~但怎么有种业配fu XD

我没说他不好XD 只是觉得为什么专挑09~13这个年分毕竟他的war就算不单挑那几个年分也是很棒XD!

他09年开始才变成先发等级出赛数 之前不看很正常

结果V-Mart会不会就拿MVP来打脸 不用守备就MVP

MVP跟这没关系啊

可惜他打击也开始衰退了 Zoby是我光的中流砥柱阿

就真的还好阿 跟他是工具人没关系

zoby 真的稳稳地！而且好像每个棒次都可以打！

超级工具人

业配文XD 但是真的很喜欢Zoby

好文推！

余德龙:人家也可以

非典型明星

Zoby超神!

他很棒啊 但如果有GM用2000万签他一定会被骂死

如果是有钱的球团应该会叫他固定守位

Zoby是我电玩里面的爱将!! 超级好用!!

Zoby强的地方除了可以维持在115左右的OPS+以外 他守所有位置的守备都有一定水准

Zoby工具人还不错

应该是要讨论 光芒为什么一直让他持续在复数个守位出赛养新人？补洞？还是单纯球员喜欢到处跑？

楼上你看了这篇为什么还会问这个问题?

我的意思是通常打出名堂的球员会倾向于固定守位

在OOTP里超强的

调度可以比较灵活吧

ZOBY真的超好用的 而且能够很稳定的做出供献

Ben Zobrist为什么要选择当万用插头？

因为Maddon也很喜欢依照左右投来排打线Zoby则是都会在场上的那个人

他两打啊XD

对小市场球队来说 这种球员可以让调度更有弹性提供了很多位置platoon的选择

其实不只小市场,现在的NYY能有他也绝对加分你有鬼牌,干吗一定要拿来当A

而且他选球能力也很好 可以说是无可挑剔的好球员说他还好的人 真是笑话

守位不固定可能会影响打击状况 不确定Zoby是不是没差

fb年年放掉的球员

如果离开光芒 也许Zoby这种身分就会少见了

光芒最爱球员之一 大推Zoby

希望明年老板可以出钱留他QQ

美国余德龙

希望不要被交易

其实我非常好奇如果Zoby进FA试水温会拿到什么样的offer

乖乖当2B才是王道 当2B他的棒子可以排前几名当OF的话就排到三十几名了

不能这样排啊 那他当工具人是MLB第一耶

怎么没当C过??

替补第一名也是第一呀

重点是他可以提供打线灵活调度的弹性，而且他不管到哪个位置，对那个位置来说都是加分因为现代棒球越来越重视轮休这件事，所以他这种超级人的存在可以提供很大的便利，也增大左右打轮值可能

那当他一直去轮其他位置时 去哪找棒子跟他差不多的其他2B

那个补他位置的2B只要比他补的那个人强就算增强打线了啊

因为轮休啊。没有他，那轮休就得用打击真的不太好的工具人

这种就是哪里有洞就填哪的 过去有Figgins和Freel(RIPZoby算是他们的升级版

找一个打击还可以的4号OF 比找还可以的替补2B容易多了

Zoby打电动超好用

话不能这样说啊= = 每只球队队形不同红袜想要打击还可以的4th OF还找不到勒

一直打击打击,都不用考虑守备的喔XD

你想讲的他的运用结果就告诉你了,2B是守最多没错

所以啦 现在这个时代OF的人才比2B的人才多很多

重点还是队形啊....今天Zoby如果在红袜他就会守很多外野了......

超级工具人

如果在国民就固定2B 多守位的价值在每队会不同

在西瓜手底下才能这样一路玩到底 换个总仔还会这样用?

红袜有个人叫Brock Holt

还是要看队形阿 举今年的例子的话 对方右投手先发

光芒会左外Joyce 2B Zobrist 对方左投先发 Zobrist调到

mark derosa算是这类的球员吗？

外野 Forsythe先发2B这样

不是西瓜爱这样用他 而是你队上有这种超级工具人 你不会这样用吗? 极速大提到了超好的例子 Holt XD

DeRosa就是工具人啊

队上某些球被左杀或右杀而且守位又没刚好互补的话 Zoby

说实在..他能到国民的话..一定专职2B

DeRosa已经算是不错的工具人了 守备打击长打都在平均左右。但Ben Zobrist更上一大层

推一下 maxspeed150大 对选择不多的球队 增加超多弹性

BZ必推 光芒迷站出来啊

如果有只球队3B/SS/三个OF/4th OF都是All-star那Zoby固定二垒会是个好主意只是这种球队你要去哪生

没办法知道他如果固定二垒是不是可以让打击成绩更好

Derosa有段时期很猛但跟Zoby还是差了点XD

Holt与其说是超猛工具人 不如说他是红袜今年能守3B/SS/CF/RF中少数打得到球的吧

有没有人想过。固定守位他会更好OPS+115的确是个好打者。但调动是不是真的没有影响

DeRosa好怀念阿 虽然也是超级工具人不过他守备只能说普通

如果他原来是个OPS+130-140的type。那多守位115是赚是赔?

这问题很难讲 OPS+130~140的corner OF vs. OPS+115的MI 哪个较有价值?

或者他是能在2B站上130啊。我真不懂调动这种球员的意义固定守位。哪怕只是个120的MI。都比现在好啊

意义就是他站哪都有价值在队上也无人可取代

光芒需要这样的弹性 会不会影响只有球员自己才知道了

你把龙哥这样移我想也不黑!会差115多少啦。。。y如果这招真的那么有价值的话

当你一个打线中有一半的人需要platoon时价值就显现了至于为什么只能组出这样的打线...没钱、没农场、换不到好东西 etc.龙哥不会守OF也不会守2B啊 谈论移不移他干嘛

如果你的2B被左杀，RF被右杀，有Zoby在队上你会不让他到处跑

TB是RF被左杀2B被右杀吧

不会.往上翻会这样搞球员的人应该是极少数

光芒和绿帽都爱用platoon system,有超级工具人会很好调度至于为何用platoon system,因为需要被platoon的球员比较便宜

Marco Scutaro生涯初期也是这种角色

今天是Zoby被搞了之后还有115你才觉得有“价值“

不必怀疑超级工具人的价值 但不是每一队都能这样玩就是了

超级工具人是球队找不到人时不得不为的手段

这跟论证!这种使用方式是有价值的是两回事

没有人能保证他固定守位就会打比较好，目前都只是你一厢情愿的猜测

固定守位就能打更好是哪梦来的

然后Zoby是打过OPS+13x的工具人唷 还是你硬要说他如果解除限制的话能打15x

固定守位会打比较好算猜测?那整个联盟固守的都是白痴吗固守的球员随便算上百个而已

有没有影响是看人的 我前面提到这点 也是有所保留

就算Zoby固定守位会打更好也不见得抵得掉另一个被左/右杀的位子在攻击面的损失

会固定守位就是因为他不适合变守位啊...例如他换个守备位置防守就开始落漆有些人能守好一个位置就谢天谢地了如果像Zoby这样守哪里像哪里的守备天才 那当然有本钱换来换去....

不能直接买个不被右杀的OF当替补吗?

= =说买就买喔大联盟水准的4th OF也不是想要就有的好吗Johnny Gomes这种平均水准的球员出现在FA市场照样抢守的理由有没有想过?

我也喜欢Zoby！

为了让他换来换去 还必须找个2B被左杀OF被右杀?不能把被左杀的2B拿去换打击更好的被左杀OF?

固定守位跟打击会有什么关系? 可以少练习守多练习打?

..........

整串看完我还是不能理解固定守位为何可以提升打击

问题不就在 就算多20 ops+能对他WAR提升多少？小市场球队愿意为了那20ops+（还不一定有）牺牲多少弹性？

因果关系完全搞反，是因为有左杀右杀的问题才让他支援，谁会无聊为了让他可以换守位签球员

.................................................就是队形有缺陷才会这样做啊如果内外野手阵容都很豪华 那当然没有换来换去的必要连点platoon的概念都没有吗= =

有一种更简单又有效率的概念叫做 交易

以为交易标的要换就有吗?是不是MVP打太多了?

不要让键盘GM不开心

不是一直在提2B被左杀吗? 谈到交易又把他忘了!

不是什么事情都是随便喊个交易就结束的如果换来的人的效益不如原本这样配置 那这交易还做?

...如果可以换GM会不想换吗 有严重缺陷的人 你不想要严重缺陷得打者 自己不想用 对方就会想用吗...

老婆很正

我觉得有人很无言

只看过洋基吧,交易想要就有的喔,FA想签就有的喔

一个球员打不好 为什么不买两个好球员

我看不懂"固定位置的话打击会更好"这种需要水晶球才看的到的言论为什么会讲的这么大声别人的工具人是自杀棒 Zoby是比联盟平均好一截的打者光这一点就赢太多了吧

有意见吗

楼上明天不用打日本人吗 早点睡啊

来看看能拿多少薪水就知道了问题是打的出来的球员 会选择去队型有问题的小市场球队当个奇才吗？

天啊...max大辛苦了

这篇写得很好，借转 Rays 版其实 Zoby 和 西瓜 Maddon 真的是良马和伯乐的关系没有西瓜登那些神奇的调度和 match up，也没有办法把 zoby多守位的价值展现到这种程度…仔细看 Rays 打球的方法就会发现他们跟大联盟剩下29队都不太一样（虽然说穷也是主因，但同样穷的运动家，或很小气的马林鱼也不是这么打球）只能说 Maddon 只有一个，zoby 也只有一个，两人相遇的火花是球迷的幸运，知道原来球队可以这么样玩！

推Zoby！

超强

西瓜可能是大联盟现役唯一会让终结者出来终结第八局的总仔

我一直觉得很多人低估Zoby，他真的很强，终于平反

西瓜创造了zoby可以发挥价值的最大空间

原来是因为Zoby才特意找来"被右杀2B跟被左杀OF" (笔记)至于固定守位会不会帮助打击 谁也不知道 可能是对的但西瓜也没有余力能测试一下 他只是就阵容来说排出最强的打线 拿util来补洞 Zoby有没有被影响到不是他的考量守备会影响打击看到Pat Burrell之后我也不得不信了....

zoby ~~~ 可惜西瓜不在了 .....

zoby!!! FB爱将 最强万用工具人!!!

划错重点的不要来酸好吗

那位真的很让人无言

也就是说Zoby是催生"西瓜"这暱称的原因之一

Zoby玩游戏也很好用阿 键盘总仔表示:便宜的强打SS

可借分享Facebook吗?

大略翻译一下而已 随意分享

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