[黑特] 理想国

楼主: amperp (迷津慈航斩)   2014-04-10 22:22:31
先前有人问英文版的,我没有全部找到,只能分享我找到的部份英文版(这不能说
“原文”版,因为原文是希腊文)
When a democracy which is thirsting for freedom has evil cup-bearers
presiding over the feast, and has drunk too deeply of the strong wine of
freedom,then, unless her rulers are very amenable and give a plentiful
draught, she calls them to account and punishes them, and says that they
are cursed oligarchs.
我设想一个情境,一个民主城邦渴望自由,很可能选出最差的团队来领导,
接受这最差团队所有花言巧语的欺骗,就像沉醉于美酒中而不可自拔。
如果是由正派团队来领导,他们只要稍微要求秩序,不再过份纵容,这个社会就群起
攻之,骂他独裁,还要将他赶下台严办。
and loyal citizens are insultingly termed by her slaves who hug
their chains and men of naught; she would have subjects who are like rulers,
and rulers who are like subjects: these are men after her own heart, whom she
praises and honours both in private and public. Now, in such a State, can
liberty have any limit?
至于那些愿意守秩序的人们,就被指为奴性太强,受到唾骂;平民向官员高高在上,
官员向平民低声下气。这样的国家走向极端自由不是必然的吗?
the father grows accustomed to descend to the level of his sons
and to fear them, and the son is on a level with his father, he having no
respect or reverence for either of his parents
父亲畏惧儿子,而做儿子的和父亲没大没小,不怕父母,似乎这样做才叫自由人。
In such a state of society the master fears and flatters his scholars, and
the scholars despise their masters and tutors; young and old are all alike;
and the young man is on a level with the old, and is ready to compete with
him in word ordeed; and old men condescend to the young and are full of
pleasantry and gaiety; they are loth to be thought morose and authoritative,
and therefore they adopt the manners of the young
另外还有一些类似的情况。老师害怕学生,奉承学生,学生反而篾视老师。
年轻人装老大,向长辈呛声,针锋相对;而老一辈的人则处处讨好年轻人,
学起年轻人用语说说笑笑,态度低声下气,学起年轻人一样行事,就怕被年轻人认为
是老古板。
And above all, I said, and as the result of all, see how sensitive the
citizens become; they chafe impatiently at the least touch of authority,
and at length, as you know, they cease to care even for the laws, written
or unwritten; they will have no one over them.
重点是,公民变得非常敏感;即使只要求一点点限制,他们也会变得烦躁不耐烦;
最后,你知道,他们再也不在乎任何的法令与规范,不会接受任何人的管制。
The ruin of oligarchy is the ruin of democracy; the same disease magnified and
intensified by liberty overmasters democracy–the truth being that the
excessive increase of anything often causes a reaction in the opposite
direction; and this is the case not only in the seasons and in vegetable and
animal life, but aboveall in forms of government
独裁政体瓦解的原因同时也是民主政体瓦解的原因。同样的弊病,被自由扩大加重后,
就会毁灭了民主政体。——事实就是:物极必反。这种现象,不仅在季节、动植物生命
中都是如此,在政治的形式上也是如此。
The excess of liberty, whether in States or individuals, seems only to pass
into excess of slavery
无论是国家还是个人,只要是极端的自由,最终反而会走向极端的奴役
And so tyranny naturally arises out of democracy, and the most aggravated
form of tyranny and slavery out of the most extreme form of liberty?
独裁政体很自然地是从民主政体中生出来,最严重的独裁体制和奴隶
制体制来自于最极端的自由形式,是吗?
作者: peteref (Falcon)   2014-04-10 22:24:00
推 柏拉图根本先知
作者: vul3nj04 (vul3)   2014-04-10 22:24:00
原PO辛苦了~
作者: bonju2 (ZeRo)   2014-04-10 22:25:00
所以苏格拉里死了
作者: game721006 (Simon)   2014-04-10 22:25:00
感谢分享…根本就是中华民国的现状…唉
作者: jade7601 (Jadeite 我是辛运E)   2014-04-10 22:25:00
柏拉图应该是亲身经历吧?
作者: lostt (事不过三!)   2014-04-10 22:27:00
作者: MajolicaYu ( 如梦亦如电 )   2014-04-10 22:27:00
谢谢原po~推
作者: starfury (红茶与西洋棋)   2014-04-10 22:31:00
穿越人柏拉图
作者: tina1007 (L'appernti sorcier)   2014-04-10 22:32:00
柏拉图真的是先知.......还是该说人性真的是如此
作者: tina1007 (L'appernti sorcier)   2014-04-10 22:33:00
回去要看荀子了
作者: cy97 (Klaus)   2014-04-10 22:33:00
作者: dwood123 (朽木)   2014-04-10 22:33:00
借分享
作者: DavidEaston (D.Easton)   2014-04-10 22:37:00
天阿 感谢你
作者: puec2 ( .__________.)   2014-04-10 22:41:00
标题改台湾国也没错
作者: DavidEaston (D.Easton)   2014-04-10 22:42:00
平常发文约40赞左右, 撷取最后两句看这次会有多少XDD
作者: WangCM (WHITE SOX)   2014-04-10 22:44:00
柏拉图先知
作者: gohpx (懒得想)   2014-04-10 22:45:00
人性如此..
作者: amozartea (自行车单)   2014-04-10 22:47:00
先知...
作者: kougousei (kougousei)   2014-04-10 22:49:00
感谢!!
作者: aaaazzzzsung (李彧)   2014-04-10 22:52:00
吱吱一天到晚跑来正黑骂区区奴性强...
作者: annie91084 (小猪)   2014-04-10 22:54:00
人性啊... ˊ_>ˋ
作者: waloloo (ARIAxヨシノヤ )   2014-04-10 22:55:00
是好学生庭师的迷津慈航斩
作者: kim123boy (秋风五丈原)   2014-04-10 22:59:00
帮推好文
作者: z810638 (小宝)   2014-04-10 23:02:00
柏拉图有天在洗澡时,神奇的来到2014年的台湾立法院~
作者: aaaazzzzsung (李彧)   2014-04-10 23:09:00
罗马浴场...
作者: youlike5566 (超级喜翻5566)   2014-04-10 23:10:00
柏拉图先知 他的洞穴理论超推
作者: happyweina (玫瑰骑士)   2014-04-10 23:11:00
先知!
作者: ej3xl3284 (bro)   2014-04-10 23:11:00
先知阿...把人性看得太透彻了
作者: DavidEaston (D.Easton)   2014-04-10 23:18:00
洞穴传说是我们西洋政治哲学老师每年开场必讲的故事
楼主: amperp (迷津慈航斩)   2014-04-10 23:18:00
欢迎分享。
作者: youlike5566 (超级喜翻5566)   2014-04-10 23:25:00
我觉得这次学运真的就是洞穴的体现
作者: acharles01 (lanlis)   2014-04-10 23:32:00
很可能选出最差的团队来领导 这不就是kmt吗?
作者: acharles01 (lanlis)   2014-04-10 23:33:00
阿对吼 忘了9.2视kmt为宇宙真理 马宗痛一定是正派团队
作者: aaaazzzzsung (李彧)   2014-04-10 23:35:00
噢 那麻烦吱吱以后别说马冏独裁囉(指指下面几行
作者: jubilee (Liang)   2014-04-10 23:55:00
感谢原po,这英文好古雅哦
楼主: amperp (迷津慈航斩)   2014-04-11 00:02:00
柏拉图早就知道群众的下一句。
楼主: amperp (迷津慈航斩)   2014-04-11 00:03:00
甚至下两句都被他预测了。
作者: QuantumFoam (量子泡沫)   2014-04-11 00:23:00
柏拉图下去领500
作者: Supasizeit (更大更快更有力)   2014-04-11 00:34:00
党工
作者: ebi (Prince Siegfried)   2014-04-11 00:43:00
柏拉图oppa 你太中肯
作者: CCBaxter (废文是一门艺术)   2014-04-11 01:16:00
可以作成图片吗? 我想分享给反服贸的朋友看
作者: saintdc (SAINT)   2014-04-11 01:20:00
我在FB上贴 简短版就有人说我拿放大镜看学生了
作者: saintdc (SAINT)   2014-04-11 01:21:00
很想回他 你拿照妖镜看政府 老子不能拿哈哈镜看你喔
作者: saintdc (SAINT)   2014-04-11 01:35:00
http://ppt.cc/bErq 刚做的 想用的人自便
作者: virtureal (katsura)   2014-04-11 02:25:00
很多人转贴台湾默默被马囧弄成独裁我还觉得好笑,看到这篇真得怕了
作者: cy97 (Klaus)   2014-04-11 09:59:00
马若独裁,大家都不会在ptt上了
作者: pennymarkfox (潘尼老狐狸)   2014-04-11 10:30:00
求m文啊
作者: pennymarkfox (潘尼老狐狸)   2014-04-11 10:33:00
求m文啊...
作者: moyoro (三等士官长报到)   2014-04-11 17:45:00
柏拉图的"民主"和现代的民主不太一样啊
楼主: amperp (迷津慈航斩)   2014-04-11 19:27:00
当时民主和现在非常不一样,偏偏他讲的竟然还适用,就神奇吧!
作者: upu (傑犽無糖口香糖)   2014-04-25 22:46:00
先知朝圣推

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