[专栏]灰色地带:从曹锦辉事件看台湾的假球文化

楼主: thinktwice31 (边一个发明了返工)   2015-07-09 00:15:26
专栏 [外电] 灰色地带:从曹锦辉事件看台湾的假球文化
这是一篇我在PTT棒球版上分享过的文章,现在在这里再po一次,希望有更多人可以看到
来自VICE Sports记者Jorge Arangure Jr.对于曹锦辉事件、中职现况、乃至于台湾棒球
环境的精彩见解。
我本身是VICE的忠实读者,这是一个相当有趣的美国独立媒体,关注的议题也都比较特殊
(毒品、社会敏感议题、以及社会边缘人之类的)。VICE Sports是他们的体育板块,报
导的切入点与一般的体育媒体有所不同,比较喜欢以多重角度以及文化背景来分析体育事
件以及人物,是一个很有趣的体育媒体。这次竟然出现有关于中职的文章,让我非常的有
感触,所以决定来翻译一下。
原文报导:Jorge Arangure Jr. / VICE Sports
原文链接
发表时间:1/2/2015
莫约十年前,台湾投手曹锦辉是棒球界的全美前25新秀,他有着充满力量的速球,并被广
泛认为拥有王牌投手的潜质。2000年是他在美国的第一个球季,当年年仅19岁的曹锦辉在
145局内三振了187名打者,2003年他便代表科罗拉多落矶升上了大联盟。
Nearly 10 years ago, Taiwanese pitcher Chin-hui Tsao was considered a top 25
baseball prospect. He had a powerful fastball and was deemed a future ace. In
his first professional season in the United States in 2000, a 19-year-old
Tsao struck out 187 batters in 145 innings. By 2003, Tsao was pitching for
the Colorado Rockies.
但是好景不长,几次严重的手肘伤势断送了他在美国的职业生涯。身为自由人的曹锦辉于
2009回到了故乡台湾,并加入中华职棒(CPBL),从此再也没有回到美国球界。
But several arm and shoulder injuries derailed his career, and in 2009 he
returned to Taiwan to play in the Chinese Professional Baseball League
(CPBL). He has not pitched in the U.S. since.
上周,一则报导指出洛杉矶道奇即将以一纸小联盟合约签下33岁的曹锦辉。如果不是因为
该球员因2009年发生在台湾的假球事件而被禁赛,这样的新闻也不会引起这么多人的关注
。法庭并没有向他提出告诉,但曹锦辉还是被中华职棒处以了终身禁赛的处分。
Last week, reports surfaced that the Los Angeles Dodgers were close to
signing Tsao, now 33, to a minor league contract—a transaction that would
hardly be notable if not for the fact that Tsao hasn't pitched professionally
since that 2009 season in Taiwan, a result of having been named in a
match-fixing scandal in his home country. Tsao was banned for life from the
CPBL despite a Taiwanese court having acquitted him of any charges.
虽然他没有被起诉,但是检方约谈的记录却显示曹锦辉有“意图”协助两场假球:其中一
场因为下雨延赛而没有成功,另一场则因为其他答应要打假球的球员临阵退出而也以失败
告终。即使这两场比赛都没有真正的假球产生,但是检方的资料却足以断送曹锦辉在台湾
的棒球生涯。
Although he was not convicted, the acquittal papers alleged that Tsao had
conspired to fix two games; one of which never occurred because of a rain-out
and the second of which was allegedly not fixed after several players backed
out. Still, the accusations were enough to kill Tsao's career in his home
country.
作为第一个在大联盟出赛的台湾人,家喻户晓的曹锦辉代表了中华职棒对抗假球的零容忍
政策的一个象征。
The first player from Taiwan to appear in the major leagues, Tsao—who
received a still-record $2.2 million signing bonus in 1999—has become a
symbol for the CPBL's new, tough stance on game-fixing.
为了台湾棒球的道德观感,中华职棒认为曹锦辉的禁赛有其必要性以及正当性。所以当澳
洲联赛的阿德莱德鲨鱼队于上个月试图与曹锦辉签约的时候,中华职棒向澳洲球队施压,
并且最终成功的阻止了这次签约。
The CPBL so believed that Tsao's ban was necessary to maintain the integrity
of Taiwanese professional baseball that last month the league pressured the
Australian Baseball League to nullify Tsao's contract agreement with the
Adelaide Bite, where Tsao had hoped to showcase himself to major league teams.
为何中华职棒要对一个如此家喻户晓的球员这么的严苛呢?这道理十分简单,在过去的二
十年间,台湾棒球因为层出不穷的假球事件已可谓是遍体鳞伤。
Why would the CPBL take such a hard stance against a prominent player? Quite
simply because game-fixing has threatened baseball in Taiwan for nearly 20
years.
近百年来,棒球一直是台湾最受欢迎的运动。由日治时期的日本人引进的这项运动在台湾
扎根已久,即便后来的民国政府并没有特别的扶植棒球,1960年代台湾人还是通过在这项
运动上的成功来稍微洗刷了被中国逼出联合国的辛酸与屈辱。
Baseball has been Taiwan's most popular sport for more than a century.
Japanese occupation of the island brought the sport to Taiwan in the late
19th century. Baseball thrived despite a lack of support from the Chinese
nationalist party after World War II. By the late 1960s, baseball had become
a source of pride for Taiwan, which, under pressure from China, had lost its
United Nations seat.
当台湾在国际社会面对各种尴尬的政治问题时,该国少棒队的精彩表现让全世界用不同的
方式认识了台湾。台湾少棒于1969至1981年豪夺10次由美国举办的世界少棒大赛(
Little League World Series)冠军,并迫使该赛事的组织者于1975年开始禁止国际球队
参赛。
So while Taiwan faced political international ambiguity, the country's youth
baseball teams helped establish an identity for the island. Taiwanese youth
teams won 10 of 13 Little League World Series titles from 1969-81. Tournament
organizers banned foreign teams from the 1975 Little League World Series in
large part because of Taiwan's dominance.
1989年的十月,几个台湾公司决定成立自己的职业棒球联赛,初始的四支球队分别由以下
企业成立:味全,统一,三商,以及兄弟。1990年的第一个赛季,新成立的中华职棒每场
比赛可以吸引至少五千名观众进场,乘着球市大好,联盟很快于1993年扩张为六支球队,
并且在1997年加入了第七队。
On October 23, 1989, several businessmen agreed to found the CPBL with four
teams backed by Taiwanese companies: Wei Chuan Corp., Uni-President
Enterprises Corp., Mercuries & Associates, and Brother Hotel, Inc. Attendance
was nearly 5,000 fans per game in that inaugural 1990 season. The league
expanded to six teams in 1993, and then added a seventh team in 1997.
时报鹰是第一支因为假球而倒下的球队,该队是台湾1997年第一场假球事件的主角。检方
的多方调查显示时报鹰,三商虎,以及味全龙的好几位球员因为地方角头和暴力集团的威
胁而不得不参与了好几场假球。暴力集团甚至刺伤了当时不愿意合作的味全龙总教练,同
时也是台湾棒球界的传奇人物,徐生明。
But the China Times Eagles were soon disbanded after the first major
game-fixing scandal in 1997. Several investigations revealed that players
from the Eagles, the Mercuries Tigers, and the Wei Chuan Dragons had
participated in game-fixing after having been physically threatended by
gangsters. At one point, gangsters even stabbed Wei Chuan's manager, Hsu
Sheng-ming, a Taiwanese baseball legend, after he refused to participate in
game-fixing.
类似的事件于2005年以及2008再次爆发,连续的假球事件导致多支球队被勒令解散,才刚
呈雏形的中华职棒也不得不反复进入漫长的重建。如此的重伤害却还是无法防止2009年的
黑象事件:一个牵动了全国最受欢迎球员曹锦辉以及最受欢迎球队兄弟象的又一次假球事
件。很明显的,台湾棒球并没有走出从前的腐败,之前几次的反假球行动都被证明不过是
杯水车薪。
Similar scandals arose in 2005 and then again in 2008, which resulted in the
disbanding of several other teams and a complete reorganization of the
league. But not even that could prevent the 2009 scandal involving Tsao and
his Brother Elephants team—the country's most popular player and most
popular franchise. Taiwan was not past its corruption problems, and
previously attempted solutions had proven to only be cosmetic.
“联盟以及有关当局并没有去追溯问题的根源,也就是暴力集团以及黑白两道对赌球的参
与,反而是迅速切割那些被约谈的球员,无论他们是不是真的有被定罪” 一位不具名的
相关人士这样告诉我。由于话题敏感,接受访问的相关人士都不愿具名。
"Instead of going after some of the source problems—organized crime and
dirty politicians—they quickly cut loose all the players brought up on
allegations, whether they are guilty or not," said one Taiwanese baseball
insider who did not want to be identified because of the sensitive nature of
the topic. No source who spoke to VICE Sports for this story wanted their
name used.
中华职棒层出不穷的假球基本上可以被归结为以下几个原因:第一,亚洲的赌球市场非常
的大,大到甚至可以牵动该区域所有的国家。
The CPBL is susceptible to match fixing for several reasons: first, the Asian
gambling market is a billion dollar industry and it infects all countries in
the region in some way.
第二,台湾球员基本上是职业棒球世界薪水最低的一群人。“这个联盟一点都不尊重他们
的球员”,一位驻台球探这么说道,“这个联盟非常的不专业。”
Second, Taiwanese players are among the lowest paid in professional baseball.
"The league just doesn't respect the player," said one scout based in Taiwan.
"The league is just not professional."
中华职棒球员的基本薪资仅为美金两千,而且还完全没有保障,一个领有复数年合约的球
员甚至可以随时被球队解约。这个联盟没有一个真正的自由球员系统,也没有类似小联盟
的农场配置。一些球队甚至让球员在春训的时候睡在高中宿舍,许多球员竟然还需要负责
球团的日常庶务。
Players earn a base salary of just over $2,000 per month, which is not
guaranteed. A player, despite having a multi-year contract, can be released
at any time. There is also no true free agency and no real minor league
system. Some teams make players stay at high school dorms during spring
training, and many players are obligated to perform clubhouse attendant
duties.
一些球员的成长背景以及加入球队前的社经地位也是其中一个重大因素。由于1970年代棒
球的盛行,许多台湾的学校开始开设专为棒球队服务的体育班。台湾的小球员从小便开始
只重视棒球且荒废学业。
It is also worth considering the socio-economic backgrounds of some of the
players. As a result of baseball's popularity in the 1970s, Taiwanese schools
began to offer the sport almost as a vocational class. Young Taiwanese kids
essentially began to focus on baseball rather than on academics.
小球员花费在训练上的时间与精力大大超越了他们正常的上课时间,学校甚至会跨县市招
募有资质的小朋友来帮助球队。
Players spent more time training than they did in the classroom, and schools
recruited players from afar to improve their baseball teams to participate in
ultra-competitive leagues.
“训练基本上成为了他们高中的全部”一位相关人士这样告诉我,“虽然他们在学校,但
是学业并不是他们教育的一部分。”
"It becomes baseball training for most of the high schools," said the
Taiwanese baseball insider. "Even though it's school, academics are not part
of their education."
为了校队的成绩,这些学校开始从台湾一些比较贫穷,并且教育资源比较匮乏的地区招募
体能出众的球员,而他们很多人都和曹锦辉一样是原住民:一群在台湾经常被边缘化的族
群。也正因为如此,中华职棒的球员很大部分都有原住民背景。
Schools began to recruit players from some of Taiwan's most impoverished
neighborhoods. Aboriginal Taiwanese—like Tsao—who had grown up without much
of an education, and had been some of the country's most marginalized
citizens, were particular targets. As a result, a large chunk of the CPBL
player pool became comprised of aboriginal Taiwanese.
以上这些因素结合在一起,造就了一个让球员能够接触假球的环境:因为低薪,他们需要
钱来贴补家用、他们许多人成长于对犯罪比较容忍的环境、而因为教育上的不足,球员们
在面对此类情况的时候无法做出更好的判断。
All of this helped create an environment where players became willing
participants in game-fixing because they needed money to supplement their low
salaries, or because they had grown up in an environment of economic survival
where crime was not necessarily seen as an illicit activity, or they simply
lacked the education to make better decisions.
“当面对假球问题的时候,球员的社经地位,他们的价值观,还有他们的性格养成是必须
考虑的几个点”一位相关人员这样说。“如果他们在读书的时候没办法得到正当的性格养
成以及对金钱的价值观,你又如何期待他们能够在成为大人后以正确的方式去面对这样的
诱惑呢?”
"With game-fixing problems, the players' social background and value system
and what type of character development they received are things that need to
be considered," the Taiwanese baseball insider said. "When they don't get
character development as part of their education, and they begin to have
values that are more about money, how do you overcome these pressures as
adults to make the right judgments?"
台湾假球事件的过程通常非常类似,一个球员的前队友或是朋友会介绍球员给黑道认识,
这经常会发生在一些社交场合,而社交的内容则是酒以及性招待。当被黑道接触后,球员
马上就会被要求打假球,有时候这些黑道还会诉诸暴力,一些特别强大的黑道甚至可以直
接打电话给球队来确认假球的进度。
Game-fixing followed a similar path, according to sources. A former teammate
or a friend would introduce players to gangsters. This usually happened
during a social outing where players were treated to drinks and, often,
sexual favors. Once in contact with the gangsters, these players were soon
asked to fix games, sometimes forcefully. Some gangsters were powerful enough
where they could directly call into the clubhouse to check on their
investment.
联盟也有尝试过对抗这些犯罪行为,其内容不外乎让球员于春训时参与所谓的反赌课程,
球员也必须签署让联盟监控他们手机通讯内容的同意书。
The league has tried to combat this criminal element by forcing players to
attend anti-gambling seminars during spring training. Players are also made
to sign consent forms that allow league officials to monitor their cell
phones.
但这些可能都还是不足以防止假球的再一次发生。
Yet that might still not be enough.
“一些和我聊过这些事情的人认为类似事件还是持续不断的在发生中,只是以和以往不同
的形式和方法”一位美国大联盟球探这样说道。“可能不是像黑象这样等级的,但是黑道
的渗透在台湾实在是太无所不在了,你要如何将它完全拔出出棒球?”
"People I've talked to still think it's probably going on in some form," said
one American League team scout. "There hasn't been a high profile bust like
when Tsao was indicted, but the gangster/mafia culture is so prominent in the
country it's tough to root it out of baseball."
这也就是为什么中华职棒认为曹锦辉的例子是如此的重要。
And that's why the CPBL believes Tsao's case has become so important.
2010年六月,就在他被台湾禁赛不久后,曹锦辉在美国让几位大联盟球探做了测试。结果
非常不错,而曹锦辉的表现也引来了许多关注。
In June 2010, shortly after he had been banned in Taiwan, Tsao worked out for
several major league team scouts in the U.S. He did well enough in those
tryouts to attract some interest.
但大联盟在台湾检方的完整调查报告出炉前并不敢通过任何与曹锦辉相关的合约请求。为
了调查曹锦辉事件,大联盟动用了他们自己的调查小组(调查禁药使用的同一批人员)。
在一段非常长的调查后,许多资讯来源均确认曹锦辉已经被允许与大联盟球队签署合约。
But MLB was hesitant to approve any deal until a full investigation had been
conducted. In order to fully vet Tsao, MLB deployed its investigative unit—
the same group that had been put together to untangle PED use, and had also
helped curb illegal activities in the signing of Latin American amateur
players. After a lengthy investigation, Tsao, according to several sources,
was cleared to sign with a major league team.
对曹锦辉来说,这便是证明他清白的最大筹码,但曹锦辉至今却还没有被任何球队签下。
一直到2014年的11月,当曹锦辉在15名大联盟球探面前投出92-93miles的球速时,美国对
他的兴趣才又开始油然再起。但这样的表现也只够为他带来小联盟合约的兴趣。
This has been Tsao's biggest claim to innocence. But Tsao remained unsigned
until now. It was only after Tsao's workout for MLB team scouts in November
2014 that interest in him arose again. During that tryout in front of about
15 teams, Tsao threw 92-93 mph and appeared in good shape. Yet that was only
good enough to get him a minor league deal.
“再怎么说,他也是经历了好几次大伤,身上还有许多包袱。这样的风险实在是太大了”
一位对曹锦辉投球表现表示赞许的国联球探如此说道。“如果我们选择和他签约的话,球
团内部会有一些意见的”
"At the end of the day, he's had so many injuries and some of the baggage he
brings was just not worth the risk," said one National League team scout, who
said he had been impressed with Tsao's workout. "If we would have signed
Tsao, it would have created some commotion."
他接下来又说道:“我认为他是清白的,但是这些事情总是有许多灰色地带的,不是吗?

He added: "As far as I know, I think he's innocent. But there's a lot of gray
area out there."
译者:您诚挚的dermer丹
http://www.sportsv.net/articles/6668
这一篇译者在今年年初的时候有在棒球版上分享过的文章,
这个国外记者对于中华职棒的观察分析讲述的非常透彻且写实。
很适合深夜来省思台湾的棒球发展及未来,及我们对于是与非的认定标准。
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 00:18:00
其实看观众就知道啦 1990年开始 球迷年长后都不看了 怪球迷??
作者: LAKobeBryant (Forever Superstar)   2015-07-09 00:20:00
作者: ntusimmon (没有人可以像妳)   2015-07-09 00:20:00
这国外记者怎么会没写到假球零容忍的联盟里面还有27人
作者: LAKobeBryant (Forever Superstar)   2015-07-09 00:21:00
还在跳针27人 27人的事情都讲过几次了不爬文继续跳
作者: ntusimmon (没有人可以像妳)   2015-07-09 00:21:00
名单的人和放人生路的人在里面呢?? 浮动零容忍
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 00:21:00
他这么专业 就不叫国内记者了 他还会知道有个大魔神cp郭建成棒球根本不能放水 何况还放六次 谁知道是真的 联盟也不敢保证
作者: tim0922 (掬水月)   2015-07-09 00:22:00
联盟非常不专业XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 00:23:00
用嘴的大家都会 这么多年了 联盟也没啥变 球迷也大了变聪明囉
作者: morinaga9515 (不伤身不含内固醇)   2015-07-09 00:23:00
六次是那六次?
作者: ntusimmon (没有人可以像妳)   2015-07-09 00:24:00
某队好像就假球五连霸了说....
作者: smaillove   2015-07-09 00:25:00
外国人能这么了解台湾的球界生态真不简单
作者: morinaga9515 (不伤身不含内固醇)   2015-07-09 00:26:00
我怎么记得假球就五次?为什么会变六次还有球队假球五连霸?
作者: flac (老狮子)   2015-07-09 00:28:00
用文化来形容台湾职棒的假球事件实在有点残酷
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 00:28:00
那可能我记错了吧 毕竟职十后都当笑话看了 我改成五次
作者: smallchyang (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)   2015-07-09 00:29:00
我怎么觉得很中肯
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 00:29:00
而且两支存在超过中职的球队 一支解散 一支黑化 这很残酷啊~~
作者: juihua (蔚蓝海岸)   2015-07-09 00:30:00
全世界最低薪的中职联盟XD 非常不专业的联盟XD 去死吧
作者: akila08539 (进击的台湾魂)   2015-07-09 00:30:00
只能说这样还能活26年 难怪什么怪事都有
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 00:30:00
已经26了喔 = = 真的是0日球迷了 XDD
作者: morinaga9515 (不伤身不含内固醇)   2015-07-09 00:36:00
澳联不提,墨联薪水有比较高吗?
作者: knml (法师)   2015-07-09 00:38:00
墨联还是大西洋联不是最高3000镁吗?
作者: Werth28 (Jayson Werth)   2015-07-09 00:39:00
中肯好文...但残酷...
作者: jackyliu (吱导吱演领头羊)   2015-07-09 00:51:00
推QAQ
作者: ChineseTeam (自私的说走就走)   2015-07-09 00:52:00
在大是大非的原则下 没有灰色地带让球员躲避是非
作者: leonjapan (强尼六本)   2015-07-09 00:52:00
中职面临过好几次要解散的危机吧是热血球迷救回来的...最有问题的还是出在联盟规章不完善和非常低薪让球员很难在生存面包和道德上做一个正确的决定要玩职业运动比赛,国家对于一个职业联盟要很重视评估一些很基本的东西,台湾政府自己本身也不了解
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 00:58:00
有cpbl存在 谁是黑 谁是白 根本没有人知道 那还玩啥职业球队
作者: kasamh (穷酸小子)   2015-07-09 01:06:00
中职是靠热血球迷救回来的?中职最黑暗时一场一千人以下是常态
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 01:09:00
就是职七之后啊 他马的 味全三连霸的时候 最后居然还解散....
作者: kasamh (穷酸小子)   2015-07-09 01:09:00
让中职活下去的最大功臣绝对是拿钱出来的万恶球团
作者: kasamh (穷酸小子)   2015-07-09 01:10:00
一埸花个几百块进场吃便当的球迷别往自已脸上贴金
作者: cuteyy (cuteyy)   2015-07-09 01:10:00
推翻译,这种记者等级简直比台湾记者好1000000000000倍
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 01:12:00
所以cpbl可以一直骗一直骗这样也是没错啦 资方最大囉~~~
作者: Leaflock (民雄凤梨田切让)   2015-07-09 01:16:00
生长背景与社会结构的确是导致假球文化的原因 但很多人基本上是放弃思考这些问题
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 01:17:00
因为不能思考 才能接受健保资源无限的概念啊 有脑思考不得了
作者: rayven (掷筊才是真正云端运算)   2015-07-09 01:18:00
我还记得这篇,一个外国人竟然能理解ROC利用少棒儿童转移民众对政府的不信任跟愤怒
作者: Adven (电风扇)   2015-07-09 01:21:00
利用枪决都行啦 利用少棒也就小CASE了
作者: IHD (终于要等到时空变异了吗?)   2015-07-09 01:21:00
所以少棒都操到断 林威助少棒时的王牌好像国中就爆啦
作者: ggglu (g儒)   2015-07-09 01:24:00
借转~感谢
作者: pkqooet (油口皆悲)   2015-07-09 01:38:00
推这记者 台湾记者写的新闻根本是渣
作者: robinyu85 (台湾万岁)   2015-07-09 01:39:00
这篇作者根本比一堆台湾人还懂台湾棒球啊!!!!
作者: stocktonty (前田忧佳)   2015-07-09 01:49:00
放水有差吗 现在桃园队的假日还不是常常很满 很好啊
作者: kch978 (kch)   2015-07-09 02:01:00
这作者真的写的很好
作者: gatimercy (grazie merci)   2015-07-09 02:05:00
作者: charlie777 (山猫)   2015-07-09 02:32:00
天阿,请一位土生土长的台湾记者都没人家写的好,赞!!
作者: wanderwolf   2015-07-09 02:59:00
中职的球迷某方面来说就是假球的帮凶只要你买票进场支持 就变成支持中职支持中职 就等于支持假球 就等于伤害台湾的棒球没有这种意识的 会以为自己在支持台湾棒球其实刚好相反 中华职棒不倒 假球永远存在
作者: ohmygodha (paradox)   2015-07-09 04:28:00
这篇写台湾假球原因写得真好 整个讽刺了台湾社会的弊病
作者: dermer (der毛)   2015-07-09 06:34:00
呜哇,是我的文章耶
作者: ct1030 (你好吗我很好)   2015-07-09 06:55:00
这篇也太专业…
作者: ben1013 (二代龙)   2015-07-09 07:03:00
曹操妮薪水低?他还没签约就去问放水价码,根是不折不扣的垃圾
作者: q51l084 (RFEED)   2015-07-09 07:38:00
怎么感觉CPBL被啪啪啪
作者: ninetofiver (上班族)   2015-07-09 08:47:00
台肯
作者: troubled   2015-07-09 09:25:00
看的出来国外记者都是有读书的人在当,不像国内
作者: VVizZ (我很穷)   2015-07-09 09:32:00
台湾赌球就是结构性因素 但是无脑人只会推给球员不自爱搞不好自己也偷偷签地下的输一屁股 不然干嘛恨球员
作者: coutji3184 (十一月的冰雨)   2015-07-09 09:40:00
教育问题
作者: monfish (木鱼)   2015-07-09 10:52:00
推这篇 讲得很透彻
作者: c60789 (花花的老婆花痴)   2015-07-09 12:21:00
作者: seavoo (寄居蟹)   2015-07-09 17:29:00
中肯

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